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Blown Tire on T/O

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Blown Tire on T/O

Old 03-14-2018, 06:15 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by FlyJSH View Post
Again, I will point out that while the crew new about the blown tire prior to landing, I have yet to see that they knew of the failure prior to gear retraction. (If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please present it, and I will gladly retract all my comments).
Other than the statements in the original article linked at the outset of this thread?

"When we were taking off out of Newark, the plane kind of shuddered as the nose lifted. After that, everything was fine. About 90 minutes before we landed, the crew came out, made sure everyone was awake. Told us we were going to have a problem with the landing gear and to prepare for the worst," Kyle Hobbs says.
Did they guess? Did the passengers know something the crew did not? Did someone with a really big set of binoculars figure it out enroute and tell them? They didn't know at the time, but put two and two together enroute?

The central theme here does not regard damage about which one does not know. The question is asked whether one brings up the gear and continues, with a known problem.

Originally Posted by FlyJSH View Post
And even if they had known about the failure which probably occurred at or at least near V1, most of us are so triggered to positive rate, gear up, rig the aircraft to survive the engine failure, that a blown tire around V1 is outside of our normal survival priorities.
Are you actually going to suggest that as crew members we fly without thought or reason, and simply do things based on reaction? When we specifically train NOT to do that, when millions are spent focusing on the decision on the runway, a crew simply mindlessly acts and can't be expected to do otherwise, because the usual thing is to raise the gear? God help the passengers flying behind such a crew. Clearly, because the crew won't, or can't.

Are we really so stupid that we simply proceed because something is routine? Good clarion call for unmanned cockpits, then, isn't it?

Originally Posted by FlyJSH View Post

But while every six months I rehearsed a V1 cut, I NEVER was given an 80 knots tire blows scenario. How often during a before take off brief do you include a part about tire failure at/near V1?
You've never been given a failed tire on takeoff on a V1 cut or in the high speed regime? I don't believe I've ever been to a training program or course of training, be it recurrent or initial, that didn't include a tire failure. I had one in a simulator just a few days ago.

How often do I brief events prior to V1? Before every takeoff. While one may continue with a failed tire, and in most cases is best advised to do so, retracting the gear on a failed tire is another matter.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:47 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by FlyJSH View Post
And even if they had known about the failure which probably occurred at or at least near V1, most of us are so triggered to positive rate, gear up, rig the aircraft to survive the engine failure, that a blown tire around V1 is outside of our normal survival priorities.
I'll have to second JB's comments. From my early days of USAF UPT, a known gear problem on takeoff with normal thrust available was always handled the same way. Leave the gear handle alone, at least for starters. That hasn't changed for me over the last 30 years.

I don't understand why someone who manages to determine they blew a tire on takeoff would "rig the aircraft to survive" an engine failure that hasn't actually occurred.

Originally Posted by FlyJSH View Post
But while every six months I rehearsed a V1 cut, I NEVER was given an 80 knots tire blows scenario. How often during a before take off brief do you include a part about tire failure at/near V1?
Every airline I've worked for (including my current) has had a set of standards that apply to takeoff decisions. This alleviates the need to address every possible contingency during every takeoff briefing. Also, since the normal plan is to takeoff and a high speed tire failure is normally handled by continuing the takeoff, what's there to brief? Are we going to talk about every contingency that still results in continuing the takeoff? There's a pretty small list of events that require a high speed reject (i.e. a deviation from the normal plan to get airborne). Tire failure isn't one of them.

Tire failure audible warnings (if equipped) are most likely inhibited in the high speed regime during takeoff to help support the go decision. There are numerous reasons that support taking a high speed tire failure airborne but very few that would then support immediate gear retraction.

I don't know the specifics about this crew's knowledge immediately after takeoff or their decision process. I thinks it's entirely possible they didn't know anything about the tire during and after takeoff. Passengers sitting over the gear probably had more immediate cues of an issue than the crew did which is probably what's leading to the media's second guessing approach in the article. Most aircraft these days have a gear page that shows tire pressures, brake temps, etc. The most likely scenario, IMO, is the crew was either alerted enroute via tower observation, tire parts on the runway or a routine systems check of the gear page.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:00 PM
  #23  
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Had a similar incident on the 737-400 MMGL to LAX. We didn't blow the tire, but threw the tire cap. Never knew about it until I was doing the walk around in LAX and spotted a skid mark on the fuselage by the R2 door.

I wondered how that got there until I saw the tire minus all the tread. When we asked the F/As if they heard anything on takeoff they said one passenger mentioned it but only spoke Spanish so they weren't sure what he was talking about.

The shredded tire cap did some damage the flaps. Aircraft was out of service for 3 or 4 days. The Captain and I had no idea anything happened until we caught it visually.
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:28 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
I am NOT Monday-morning QB-ing this crew (even though it's Monday morning).

But wanted to hear other's philosophical thoughts on continuing a transcon after a tire blow-out on T/O. As opposed to overweight LDG, or burning/dumping fuel near the departure field or other suitable divert site.

I'm *assuming* they knew they had an issue since they prepped the pax for a rough LDG.




https://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-...rtland-oregon/

Either way you've got to land. Might as well land at destination without all the drama of burning off three hours of fuel to get to landing weight. If you were not initially aware of a blown tire and the gear is already in the hole before you became aware why wouldn't you continue to destination?
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:14 PM
  #25  
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If a crew knows the gear is messed up and proceeds to try to retract it, that in my humble opinion is a serious error in judgment.

The E-170 has a solenoid to prevent gear handle movement when weight-on-wheels. It also has a push button to override the PSEM (Proximity Sensor Electronic Module - determines gear position and integrity) and release the solenoid in case the unthinkable happens and you need to retract the gear to clear a mountain but the PSEM won't let you. All of our abnormal checklists say "only press the PSEM override when required for obstacle clearance."

A few years ago my company had a takeoff from a flatlands airport in Texas in which the PSEM decided not to release the solenoid. The crew pushed the button and got that annoying gear lever to move, then proceeded to their East Coast destination. Surprise surprise, the gear wouldn't properly extend when they got there..........

That being said if the crew only finds out about a gear issue after retraction, I can understand continuing to destination if the route has plenty of safe landing sites, no abnormal indications, above landing weight to return to field, etc.
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:16 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Airhoss View Post
Either way you've got to land. Might as well land at destination without all the drama of burning off three hours of fuel to get to landing weight. If you were not initially aware of a blown tire and the gear is already in the hole before you became aware why wouldn't you continue to destination?
What if there are ragged chunks of rubber hanging from a shredded tire.
It's possible that when retracted into the wheel well, they snag/damage some wiring or hydraulic lines they wouldn't normally touch. It a reason to at least consider staying nearby.
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:27 PM
  #27  
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Well we would probably figure it out pretty quickly on the E-170 because cables for the aileron actuators run exposed through the wheel wells.......
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Old 03-18-2018, 07:42 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Gnaw View Post
What if there are ragged chunks of rubber hanging from a shredded tire.
It's possible that when retracted into the wheel well, they snag/damage some wiring or hydraulic lines they wouldn't normally touch. It a reason to at least consider staying nearby.
I guess you didn’t read my post,
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Old 03-18-2018, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Airhoss View Post
I guess you didn’t read my post,
I read what you wrote. You asked a question and I provided a response to that question... just thinking of what I'd hope to consider if this happened to me.
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Gnaw View Post
I read what you wrote. You asked a question and I provided a response to that question... just thinking of what I'd hope to consider if this happened to me.
Try reading it again. Based on an event that I had happen and as I said. We didn’t know the tire had blown until we contacted departure. So the gear was already up when we found out about it. You guys are all making the assumption that you’ll know if a tire blows on take off. It isn’t always that apparent or obvious on the flight deck.

In that case you might as well continue on if there are no other issues. If you know the tire blew then obviously don’t put the gear up.
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