Airbus cockpit window departs.
05-17-2018, 10:17 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
What a strange post.
Dunno. But if it can be done wrong, I'll bet there's a human out there capable of doing it that way.
Okay..... so maybe they didn't use the right bolts. 
Sounds like you've got it all figured out.
I don't pretend to have a clue what caused this. I was simply commenting on Phyler's information that the airline said there had been no "maintenance" on the window since they got the aircraft in 2011.
If that's really correct and nothing substantial has ever been done to that window since they took delivery, then one reasonable theory is that something wasn't done properly during the initial assembly. That's all I was saying.
I think there are plenty of other possibilities that don't involve only the "right bolts" or the wrong ones. Perhaps the window wasn't manufactured correctly and just failed. Maybe the support structure (i.e. frame) and not the window itself was the problem.
One of the F-15s in my squadron broke in two just aft of the cockpit because the structural members in the fuselage weren't milled to the correct thickness about 30 years earlier during production. Just a ticking time-bomb waiting go off when enough stress had been applied over the years and it eventually failed. After inspections, there were more than a dozen like that found with the same flaws.
My point is that anything is possible and right now, I don't subscribe to the rather narrow view you have of this. Not that my opinion means much. We'll see when the experts have a chance to investigate.
Originally Posted by rickair7777
How the hell do you mis-install a window?
Originally Posted by rickair7777
You either use the right bolts or you don't.
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Even if you didn't torque them right the failure mode would be slow leak not blowout.
I don't pretend to have a clue what caused this. I was simply commenting on Phyler's information that the airline said there had been no "maintenance" on the window since they got the aircraft in 2011.
If that's really correct and nothing substantial has ever been done to that window since they took delivery, then one reasonable theory is that something wasn't done properly during the initial assembly. That's all I was saying.
I think there are plenty of other possibilities that don't involve only the "right bolts" or the wrong ones. Perhaps the window wasn't manufactured correctly and just failed. Maybe the support structure (i.e. frame) and not the window itself was the problem.
One of the F-15s in my squadron broke in two just aft of the cockpit because the structural members in the fuselage weren't milled to the correct thickness about 30 years earlier during production. Just a ticking time-bomb waiting go off when enough stress had been applied over the years and it eventually failed. After inspections, there were more than a dozen like that found with the same flaws.
My point is that anything is possible and right now, I don't subscribe to the rather narrow view you have of this. Not that my opinion means much. We'll see when the experts have a chance to investigate.
05-18-2018, 09:47 AM
#12
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,210
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
What a strange post.
Dunno. But if it can be done wrong, I'll bet there's a human out there capable of doing it that way.
Okay..... so maybe they didn't use the right bolts.
Sounds like you've got it all figured out.
I don't pretend to have a clue what caused this. I was simply commenting on Phyler's information that the airline said there had been no "maintenance" on the window since they got the aircraft in 2011.
If that's really correct and nothing substantial has ever been done to that window since they took delivery, then one reasonable theory is that something wasn't done properly during the initial assembly. That's all I was saying.
I think there are plenty of other possibilities that don't involve only the "right bolts" or the wrong ones. Perhaps the window wasn't manufactured correctly and just failed. Maybe the support structure (i.e. frame) and not the window itself was the problem.
One of the F-15s in my squadron broke in two just aft of the cockpit because the structural members in the fuselage weren't milled to the correct thickness about 30 years earlier during production. Just a ticking time-bomb waiting go off when enough stress had been applied over the years and it eventually failed. After inspections, there were more than a dozen like that found with the same flaws.
My point is that anything is possible and right now, I don't subscribe to the rather narrow view you have of this. Not that my opinion means much. We'll see when the experts have a chance to investigate.
Dunno. But if it can be done wrong, I'll bet there's a human out there capable of doing it that way.
Okay..... so maybe they didn't use the right bolts.
Sounds like you've got it all figured out.
I don't pretend to have a clue what caused this. I was simply commenting on Phyler's information that the airline said there had been no "maintenance" on the window since they got the aircraft in 2011.
If that's really correct and nothing substantial has ever been done to that window since they took delivery, then one reasonable theory is that something wasn't done properly during the initial assembly. That's all I was saying.
I think there are plenty of other possibilities that don't involve only the "right bolts" or the wrong ones. Perhaps the window wasn't manufactured correctly and just failed. Maybe the support structure (i.e. frame) and not the window itself was the problem.
One of the F-15s in my squadron broke in two just aft of the cockpit because the structural members in the fuselage weren't milled to the correct thickness about 30 years earlier during production. Just a ticking time-bomb waiting go off when enough stress had been applied over the years and it eventually failed. After inspections, there were more than a dozen like that found with the same flaws.
My point is that anything is possible and right now, I don't subscribe to the rather narrow view you have of this. Not that my opinion means much. We'll see when the experts have a chance to investigate.
Wasn't debating your POV, just expressing surprise that this could happen. It either failed or fell off. Simple structural parts shouldn't just fall off, and this one has many redundant layers to hold it together if one layer fails.
The one previous incident of this nature that I'm aware of was due to use of the wrong bolts. But that when the window was recently replaced.
05-18-2018, 12:06 PM
#13
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
I saw a video this morning (lost the link). Initial inquiry hearing. Capt testified, as did the airline. Had subtitles.
The airline rep stated the windshield was factory-original and had never been removed.
Capt talked about his reactions, attempts to grab the FO (couldn’t; only the seatbelt saved him). More pics of the plane.
Even had pics of the FO in the hospital!! One minor cut on his right cheek; said he had a lower back injury...but did not seem to be paralyzed. I was amazed, considering the abuse he went through.
It happened around 32,000. Holy crap.
We had an article not too long ago at United (in house) that discussed windshield cracks, and why not to freak out. The pane is about 1.00-1.25 inch thick, in total.
As I recall, the sandwich is:
1. Thin glass layers inside and out, maybe 0.10 inch thick, for scratch-resistance.
2. Two thick plexiglas (plastic) layers, constituting 80% of the thickness of the window, for strength.
3. A middle layer of glass similar to crystal (lead or other metal oxides in the melt) to give it electrical conductivity (but at high resistance) to generate window heat.
So, a five-layer sandwich. Point of the article was the thin outer layers were prone to cracking and crazing, while minor delaminations in the heated interior were more likely to just give you an area where it was not as clear to see through.
Only things mechanical I can think of:
1. Window-heat controller has been faulty for many months and has delaminated whole layers due to overheat, until normal pressurization forces ruptured it.
2. Cornell University says between 18,000 and 84,000 meteorites hit the earth’s surface (greater than 10 grams) each day.. What if a “golden bb” hit the window?
The airline rep stated the windshield was factory-original and had never been removed.
Capt talked about his reactions, attempts to grab the FO (couldn’t; only the seatbelt saved him). More pics of the plane.
Even had pics of the FO in the hospital!! One minor cut on his right cheek; said he had a lower back injury...but did not seem to be paralyzed. I was amazed, considering the abuse he went through.
It happened around 32,000. Holy crap.
We had an article not too long ago at United (in house) that discussed windshield cracks, and why not to freak out. The pane is about 1.00-1.25 inch thick, in total.
As I recall, the sandwich is:
1. Thin glass layers inside and out, maybe 0.10 inch thick, for scratch-resistance.
2. Two thick plexiglas (plastic) layers, constituting 80% of the thickness of the window, for strength.
3. A middle layer of glass similar to crystal (lead or other metal oxides in the melt) to give it electrical conductivity (but at high resistance) to generate window heat.
So, a five-layer sandwich. Point of the article was the thin outer layers were prone to cracking and crazing, while minor delaminations in the heated interior were more likely to just give you an area where it was not as clear to see through.
Only things mechanical I can think of:
1. Window-heat controller has been faulty for many months and has delaminated whole layers due to overheat, until normal pressurization forces ruptured it.
2. Cornell University says between 18,000 and 84,000 meteorites hit the earth’s surface (greater than 10 grams) each day.. What if a “golden bb” hit the window?
05-18-2018, 12:41 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,227
Hadn’t thought of the Golden “BB” ha ha. I thought I read that this one did crack initially and moments later after the F/O felt it and realized it had cracked through to the inside it then departed the scene.
05-18-2018, 02:05 PM
#15
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,210
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
2. Cornell University says between 18,000 and 84,000 meteorites hit the earth’s surface (greater than 10 grams) each day.. What if a “golden bb” hit the window?
That would be one possible explanation. And there's more meteors in the flight levels than at sea level.
05-20-2018, 07:32 PM
#16
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
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