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Old 07-08-2018, 03:20 PM   #21  
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Originally Posted by HIFLYR View Post
This!!! IF it was important to their plan for me to exit in a certain taxiway they should have asked earlier during the approach.
Right! He made the correct decision imo. Some towers, especially MCO try it often, even when traffic is light. For many of them it's " when they feel like blurting it out", not about communication.

If you happen to mis understand their instructions and then screw up, there is no grace for being tower's boy. Oh ,there might be some mention in the NTSB report critical of the tower procedures, blah, blah, blah. But it's all on you. Even if you read back the wrong instruction and they don't correct you, then make an error, you are still at fault. That ruling was made about 20 years ago.

I'm all for working with ATC when I can, but my flying priorities haven't needed to change in 40 years. Aviate-Navigate-communicate.

So the tactful way to handle it is to call tower after clearing and "say again those instructions, not sure I got em right"!


There is an ATC memo about this floating around on the United iPad from about a month ago. I can't find it.
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Old 07-08-2018, 03:32 PM   #22  
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Okay found the memo. Multiple reports about this issue including a runway incursion.
Actually it's from an CISP discussion sheet from May2018. It references FA order JO7110.65, 3-10-9a. Note.
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Old 07-08-2018, 08:45 PM   #23  
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Always remember that these guys (ATC) work for you. If you need to verify landing clearance on short final and it's really busy and they yell at you, well that's just tough. If you are not sure of the taxi route and need to stop or ask them for help and they yell at you, that's just tough. Their bad day will never cause me to have a bad day and they can do all the yelling in the world when I'm doing something for the safety of my flight. It's rare for these guys to get heated, but some of them work in very fast settings and according to ones I've interviewed, they sometimes don't realize how "fast" they are trying to push everything around, including their own words. So it's perfectly within the scope of reality that they may ask you to do something that you are unable to do.

A good test for this is always safety of flight. If you are doing something for convenience, such as rolling out to the end to take the taxiway that is closest to where you want to go, that is not for the safety of flight. If they are asking me to turn left at taxiway X and I've just landed...well, that's nice that they have offered an option that I may or may not take depending on my speed and when I feel it's safe to turn off.

This usually doesn't cause any real issues. Most controllers are well aware of the issues above and their own limitations. They usually completely understand when someone doesn't comply with an unrealistic instruction. Many times, feedback is important. Call up the tower after the flight and ask to speak to the manager. These aren't big bad scary people that will bite your head off. If there are repeat problems, ASAP and use the union and other contacts to try and make changes.

Still, remember that they are always working for you. Sometimes we get led down the road of complying with something that wasn't a great idea in the first place. There may be an illusion that you are working for them, when they ask you to do stuff, but you are flying the plane.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:51 PM   #24  
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Or, ďAre you down there because Iím up here or, am I up here because youíre down there?Ē

GF
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:47 PM   #25  
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You did the right thing. ATC should not be giving instructions during the landing roll. If it was a big deal to see where you needed to turn off they could have had approach ask you.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:38 AM   #26  
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If it was a big deal to see where you needed to turn off they could have had approach ask you.
That's called LAHSO.
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Old 07-18-2018, 12:15 PM   #27  
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That's called LAHSO.


In the scenario provided, how are youincorporating LAHSO?
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Old 07-18-2018, 01:40 PM   #28  
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In the scenario provided, how are youincorporating LAHSO?
Pointing out that if it's important where you get off the runway, there's a procedure for that, with multiple requirements to meet, and it needs to be assigned well before short final. Tower should not be winging that, there's a reason LAHSO has all those requirements.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:41 PM   #29  
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Pointing out that if it's important where you get off the runway, there's a procedure for that, with multiple requirements to meet, and it needs to be assigned well before short final. Tower should not be winging that, there's a reason LAHSO has all those requirements.
Yeah....that is what I thought you might have meant, but asking where you are parking isnít really th same as LAHSO IMO.

In any case, I think the point has been made about taking your time and not letting ATC rush you, if you are busy doing other important things at the moment.
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Old 07-31-2018, 06:35 PM   #30  
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From what I was taught (and teach), and as far as I can see in the ATC regulations (7110.65), there's no requirement or expectation that you will immediately reply to a question, or need to. You can also always say "standby."

A control instruction is different -- if you're told to go around on short final, and you don't respond, it will be repeated, and if you still don't respond, and land, that would be a problem because of the FAR requirement to monitor ATC. If you do go around but don't read it back, that's fine because you've adhered to ATC instructions.

A question of where you're parking isn't a control instruction, so that wouldn't apply.

The closest 7110.65 regulation I know of would be section 3-10-9 of our regulation 7110.65 that states "Runway exiting or taxi instructions should not normally be issued to an aircraft prior to, or immediately after, touchdown," and I'd suppose a question of where you're parking would be part of that. So I don't think the controller should have asked you at touchdown. But most controllers, and their instructors, are not pilots and may not know where your workloads are highest.

Also in general, we're taught pilots have the ultimate say in anything to do with safety, and we just have to deal with it. If you're ever called out for not responding right away, bring up the safety issue and ask to talk with their supe if they want to escalate it, because pilot-in-command safety decisions are always deferred to at least in current FAA culture.

Last edited by ATCBob; 07-31-2018 at 06:47 PM.
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