Elevation

There isn’t really enough data to say anything intelligent about this accident. There are things which are perplexing, but that just means there’s isn’t enough data.

Like some others, I used to land without runway lights a fair bit, but I also remember when someone lined a truck up with the edge of a grass runway rather than centerline. It was funny, but it could have gone poorly. That’s an experience which fewer and fewer pilots will have had. Am I better off for having that experience, or am I more likely to put myself in a stupid situation? I think both.

TiredSoul

The country I’m in doesn’t allow me to open the posted link but if you can contact your girlfriend you can contact ATC.
When flightinstructing a colleague called the local tower on his cellphone after loosing all electrical power. Wasn’t even any paperwork.
I flew around with both the number of the flightschool and the control tower in my phone.
Back in 2000 I remember doing a Florida-Texas return XC with a foreign time building student in a C172 that only had one radio.
We did half of it at night and I carried an emergency kit with a flare gun.
Stupid or not I figured I could always shoot a flare at the tower if we lost all.

rickair7777

When I was a student, we used to practice night landings without LDG lights and/or runway lights. But only both with a pretty full moon. On a moonless night in the desert you'd need CAT III autoland.

JohnBurke

Not with a car/lights on the runway and a light at each end. I've done it many times, and there are some locations where I flew medevac, that the only lighting was an ambulance or law enforcement vehicle at one end or the other, and flashlights or another vehicle at the other.

I flew from a location on an reservation where the lights on the dirt airstrip were 60 watt bulbs, turned on by plugging in an extension cord in a hangar. The cord came out of the dirt. Plug it in before departure to turn on the lights. The locals would steal the bulbs to use in their homes. It wasn't at all uncommon to come back and find no lights, or some, one side unlighted, or the bulbs just gone...or not plugged in.

We didn't have cell phones. Those didn't come along until a bit later.

I learned to fly in aircraft without electrical systems. No radios. No cell phones, either. Believe it or not, such operations are not an emergency.

Blackhawk

Just to say “I’ve done it so everyone should be able to do it” is short-sighted and part of the reason the GA accident rate is so poor. EMS accident rate? Yeah, not so hot.

I taught night landings in the desert to unilluminated LZs with NVGs in combat. Probably one of the most hazardous maneuvers I have ever taught or performed. For the normal GA pilot, this is an emergency and you are doing them a disservice by encouraging them to do otherwise. It’s called the macho hazardous attitude.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...dous-attitudes

The absence of an accident does not indicate safety. Often times a possible option is not the safest option. I cringe at things I survived as a young pilot. My survival is not an indication that what I did was smart or safe. I try to impart those lessons learned to other pilots so they don't kill themselves doing the same things I was lucky enough to survive. Sometimes I think my guardian angel got really, really tired of saving my rear end. "Geez. This idiot again???"
If this guy had called 911, had them contact approach and gone to an illuminated airport this probably would have turned out differently.

JohnBurke

Did you just say this? You did. Apparently that makes you short sighted.

I did not. You quoted me and responded as though I said it, but nowhere in my comments will you find me saying this. YOU said it.

I am encouraging no one to do this. Nor have I done so.

I most certainly do teach and require a student to do this, because it would be irresponsible for a student to find himself or herself alone, at night, with an electrical failure, experiencing this for the first time and making a decision like the subjects of the initial post (who are dead). It empowers and fuels decision making such that having had this experience and exposure, may make clearer the decision when better options are available.

There is nothing macho about this. It is a matter of safety, the same as teaching off field landings. The instructor who sends a student forth to have his or first off field landing alone...has done that student a great disservice. He has failed that student. It's little wonder that so many are afraid to land off field. They've never done it or been shown it. The same can be said of dark cockpits and dark runways.

I found myself in a completely dark cockpit in a large four engine jet one night, between the mountains in Afghanistan. I'd like to think that some experience beyond the simulator lent a degree of focus and clarity to the moment; it's nothing to do with "macho," but everything to do with safety, experience, training, and preparation.

Have you ever, by chance worked in dispatch answering 911 calls?

That's not really something that a dispatcher is equipped to do.

Had the individuals had foreflight or other services available in the cockpit (and possibly did, as they're ubiquitous today), the phone number is right there...but then the cell can be used to call an operator directly, too.

You might be able to impress this course of action on the subjects of the original post, but they're dead.

The time to impress these options and to expand the thinking-box is prior to being dead. That includes exposing the student to something other than a trip around the pattern. Far from "macho," it may save their life.

One of the two pilots was a career army aviator and airline captain. How much do you think you could drill into him, that he hadn't picked up already in his career? The other pilot was his son, following in Dad's footsteps. Who do you think he's going to look to for counsel and an example, more than anyone else on the face of the planet?

Blackhawk

Not even sure where to start. So here goes.
First, while you say you don't encourage people to do so, you present your scenario as something all pilots should do. There is a big difference in teaching pilots to fly without electrical systems and encouraging them to fly to an airport without lights. Heck, you even end your rant by stating "I learned to fly in aircraft without electrical systems. No radios. No cell phones, either. Believe it or not, such operations are not an emergency." My emphasis.
Actually, this depends on many factors best summed up by the PAVE acronym. Pilot, Airplane, eVironment and External factors. Yeah, going up in a J-3 day/VFR, no big deal. An airplane losing electrical power day/VFR at a nontowered airport should also not be a big deal. Losing electrical power on approach to a class B airport, bigger deal. Night/VFR, potentially bigger deal. Night IMC, a really big deal.
There is also a very big difference between teaching a pilot to deal with such things and telling them it's normal to land at an unlit airport at night. Again, it would depend on how current a pilot is doing such things, environmental conditions (full moon versus new moon, haze, etc), and the type of airplane. Heck, I had a total electrical failure in a C-310 with the gear in transit and flaps partially extended during a night departure with zero illumination in the desert. The 45-year-old GCU fried the entire electrical system as I raised the gear. Fortunately, it was VFR and the runway lights stayed on long enough for me to lower the gear completely. IMC it would have been very dicey with all the mountains around.
In the Festus scenario, it would have been better to choose an airport with lighting since that was an option.
911 and ATC. Nope, haven't worked there. I also haven't worked in ATC, but I know some of their functions and capabilities. Yes, some pilots have gotten through to ATC via 911 so 911 dispatchers seem to be able to do so. It's happened more than once. Is it a better option to look up the number on ForeFlight? Sure... if you have it. Don't know if this guy did.
Again, safety is not the lack of risk. It's analyzing threats and risks and making the best choice. Just because we teach someone to do something in case there is no alternative, it does not mean it's the best course of action. We teach them to land in strong crosswinds, but they probably should normally take the runway with the wind down the pipe. I teach pilots to do a short field takeoff in a multiengine airplane because the FAA says I must. I then tell him to avoid short fields, and for myself and my family, I don't use an airport that does not give me 1.5x the takeoff distance under normal conditions in the POH. If conditions are worse (rain), I add more.
You teach someone to shoot an ILS to minimums, but you also tell him/her to set higher minimums until they get some IMC time under their belt. Heck, even airlines do this with NQP captains and approaches to minimums are their bread and butter.

So basically there is a difference between teaching someone to handle a situation and telling them that should be the normal way to do things, and what you presented was "I did this, so anyone should be able to do this". Depending on PAVE this may not be the case and we should teach them to evaluate the options and choose the one that is safest.

JohnBurke

No, I don't.

I present what I do as something I do.

You go do whatever you do, but when you do it, don't attribute it to me.

It's a statement, not a rant, and yes, it's your emphasis. Operating an airplane without an electrical system is not an emergency. If you choose to see it differently, by all means state as much, but the truth is, operating airplane that lacks an electrical system is not an emergency.

Likewise, operating an airplane that has no radio is not an emergency. If you think it's an emergency, by all means, say so, but the truth is, that it is not. It may shock you, but there are a lot of aircraft out there today that have neither electrical systems, nor radios.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. I believe that's been established, repeatedly. In fact, in this thread, I was the first. Never the less, it's been well established.

It's also not what the deceased chose to do.

Wow. That sounds dramatic, but the fact is that if a student is trained to land with a crosswind, then the student should be able to land with a crosswind. I'd rather the student go find a crosswind to land in and practice, rather than avoid them. Down the pipe? Sounds almost Micky Spillaneish.

How in the world can one ever fly a light twin out of anything but a 12,000' runway with at least ten miles of clearway on either end?

One could gingerly tell the student about what it's like to fly in the real world, then roll him in bubble wrap and set him on a shelf and say "all those things I told you about, don't ever do them," because after all, God forbid that anyone go build proficiency, yet we're not talking about a student pilot here. We're taking about a career army pilot and active airline pilot, and his son, who made a decision.

Had they elected to not fly the single engine airplane at night, and wait for daylight, this wouldn't really be an issue.

There's a difference between doing things that pilots are trained to do (short field, crosswind landings, etc) and for which the airplanes are capable, and for which frequent repetition is necessary for proficiency, and which are expected as staples of the airman's core skill set, and making a series of poor decisions.

There is no indication as to when this pair lost their electrical source, or how long they'd flown in that condition, but certainly long enough to drain the battery. How many airports did they pass in that time, how many other options did they discard or set aside? Did they expect the lights to be on, at arrival? Why did they not go to another airport? We don't know.

The ability to make a descent and landing after dark, in less than favorable conditions should be a pre-requisite if one intends to fly a single engine airplane with one alternator and no backup, after dark. Every bit as much as one should be proficient and prepared to make a forced landing if the engine quits. With a single electrical generation system and a limited battery, a single vacuum source, one engine, and no backups, one had better be able to fly the airplane all the way down under the least favorable circumstance, and that would include the lack of runway lights, which occurred here. If one is not prepared for the realities of what might happen at night, one should consider other options...and in a single engine piston airplane, day is preferable to night. It's hard to make that off field forced landing at night.

As a new private pilot, I rented a gee-whiz airplane at the time, a Cessna 172, with extra seats, a nose wheel, and an extra radio, more room, performance, etc. I took my mother flying as my first passenger and made a cross country flight to a high desert airport. Enroute, the alternator died, far enough out that there wasn't battery to last the trip back. I couldn't illuminate the lights at the destination, and it got dark. I headed back toward the departure point, but with mountains about and a very dark high desert around, and a dark cockpit, I had only my flashlight. It failed. I had three flashlights I my bag; each failed, and I used a chemical light stick, instead.

The stick turned out to be too bright, so I dropped it down my shirt to muffle the light, and could faintly make out a slight glow ahead, which indicated the mountains; the glow became my reference to go home, and I did.

A great many pilots have had similar experiences with slight variations in the details; we all have, and we've had them over and over regarding this aspect or that, until the basis of our judgement is the experience we hold.

A pilot who is not given the experience, in training or in actual fact, sits on an empty foundation of unknown strength. Lacking knowledge of the foundation, he or she ought exercise care for fear of overburdening it; when the foundation collapses, the outcome is at best uncertain, and at worst, fatal. In this case, it proved the latter.

We do not know what the decision chain was for the pilots, father and son. Certainly the father did not lack experience. Did he feel pressed to get on the ground for a morning deadhead to work? Was he fighting with the girlfriend and she unwilling to come get them elsewhere? Were conditions such that he felt confident in the outcome? Is this something he had done before? We don't know.

The reference article is vague and without much input or value. An investigation will ensue, and later we'll learn more.

Hopefully you've recovered from your learning experience in the C-130. The A models that I flew were not without their limitations and flaws, either. When the wings stayed on.

Flightcap

Just let JohnBurke go guys. He turns every safety thread he responds to into this kind of stupid twisting-everyone's-words debate. Don't feed the troll.

Thoughts and prayers for the family involved. Hope we all can learn something to take from it to make our own flying safer.

sherpster

Everyone knows that "Night Air has no lift"