sailingfun

Can you give us some links to data proving this? I quick google search seems to overwhelming say the opposite.

JohnBurke

What legitimate sleep science did you reference to learn that a cat nap will take the place of adequate sleep?

A complete sleep cycle does not take place in 15-45 minutes.

For someone who is adequately rested, certainly a cat nap may be beneficial, as stated, but in this business that assumes a lot. Quite a few pilots hit the road without adequate sleep: indeed, a great deal of the adult population is sleep deprived, and in such a condition, cat naps will not make up the difference, nor contribute filling the sleep deficit. That can only be filled with adequate sleep, which must be a complete sleep cycle.

FTv3

JohnBurke,

Your argument is that current research suggests only sleep episodes of 2-3 hours or more have any fatigue ameliorating value. When you look more into these publications you’ll notice they were considering overall or long term fatigue, spanning a day or more. We are talking about short term sleep periods and their short term effects, in the hours heck even down to minutes; what effect does a sleep period from 30 mins to 2 hours have on the subsequent t=0 thru t=180min awake period? The sugar high effect... Doesn’t appear to be much research in this aspect - perhaps I don’t know the proper terminology to locate these papers. Regardless, you aren’t citing the corrrect research to support your argument. I’m sure almost every pilot at FedEx and UPS (& ACMIs) will tell you (we get short sleep opportunities on the ground and inflight with long hauls), any sleep helps in the immediate short term - that’s why we have hundreds to thousands of sleep rooms and semi private beds scattered across our systems. It ain’t no joke, and it ain’t no ‘just feels good’ syndrome. We all know it works from experience. To agree with you, I have no doubt cat naps have no positive effect on long term fatigue levels.

rickair7777

Long-term sleep deprivation is cumulative, and as you said the only way to fix it is to get good sleep in the correct circadian context over a sustained period. Cat naps won't fix that.

Assuming a healthy, not-chronically-fatigued pilot, I think there's enough indication to warrant exploring "operational cat naps". I agree that science is important, we shouldn't do it just because someone else did.

But the risk of controlled napping is very low, the other guy just sets an alarm at ten minute intervals. With low risk, it might be worth doing even if the benefit is marginal, perhaps just psychological.

Also I wouldn't stay up any longer than 72 hours, you'll probably start to hallucinate.

C130driver

My experience with 15-45 minute (allowed)catnaps on Air Force aircraft during extended cruise with nothing but HFs to listen to say otherwise. Always feel refreshed especially prior to TOD. If the military allows it then there is no reason why the FAA shouldn’t.

JohnBurke

Again, anecdotal.

It's on the internet. It must be true.

The military says it's safe. What could go wrong?

I feel fine. That settles it.

Science.

No. You just said that.

I didn't.

Don't put words in my mouth, or attribute to me that which I did not say. If that's your argument, own it, but it's not mine.

Adlerdriver

Ok JB - I think you've adequately stated your viewpoint on cat naps. The thing is, from what I'm reading here, no one is trying to say a cat nap is a substitute for adequate sleep.

We're talking about doing it out of necessity - not design. The fact that a pilot is already fighting a sleep debt and may already be fatigued while flying is a problem - you're correct. But, once they find themselves in that position there are only so many options to attempt to complete the flight as safely as possible.

If your option is fight to stay awake for the rest of the flight or use a controlled nap, I vote nap. When I've used them they help. So much so that I avoid them if I'm on an augmented crew and my rest period is next. I've been falling sleep in the straps with a 1-2 hours to go until my break, taken a nap and been unable to sleep once it's actually my turn in the bunk.

So if they help, that's really all that matters to me. When I'm waking up in my seat after accidentally falling asleep every few minutes, standing up, walking around, red bulls or coffee don't help me. ~30 minutes of actual sleep, instead of fighting it have stopped the "nod off" problem and helped me prepare for the upcoming descent and approach. The fact that NASA or agency ABC hasn't done some exhaustive study to prove that to your satisfaction is irrelevant.

galaxy flyer

A nap punctuated by the CA trying to save the F/O’s bounce by grabbing the speed brake handle leading to a second touchdown requiring a new airport elevation survey.

GF

Been there, done that, greeted to pax.

JohnBurke

All the more reason to get it right. The ponit of the thread, that we must change the regulation to allow cat naps, now clarified by your asssertion that we must have them because they're the only way to safely complete a flight...illustrates my point.

If pilots are fatigued enough that they can't make it A to B without a power nap, then let's not correct the reason they can't stay awake...after all, when the barn burns down, we should de-horn all the cows. That'll fix the fire. Or we could look for reasons the barn. might burn down and fix those. Bandaids only go so far.

If the problem is serious enough that we want to create the institution of cat naps, then for damn sure we need to have a solid footing beyond anecdotal.

That settles it then.

Anecdotal science. Let's change the world.

Adlerdriver

Now John, to use your own words: Don't put words in my mouth, or attribute to me that which I did not say. I didn't say they were the only way to safely complete a flight. Read. I said the options were limited.

Now who wants to change the world? In a perfect world, that sounds great. You really want to approach this by trying to fix the myriad of circumstances that might result in a fatigued pilot on an airplane? What's your plan with that? How do you suggest we fix a maid accidentally waking a pilot or somehow solve the simple fact that his body clock is still back on Iowa time and he's on the other side of the world? In my opinion, there are too many possible "reasons they can't stay awake" to correct them all. We have fatigue calls if someone can recognize they're not fit to fly before departure. But, what if they feel okay at departure and still struggle enroute? I don't think your suggestion for a solution here is realistic.

Why? What's so critical about giving someone the option? If they work for some pilots why do they need to prove that to some regulatory agency.

Yes. It settles it for me. Of course I can't apply my personal experiences to anyone else. I wasn't suggesting that. But on the other hand, I don't think absolute scientific proof is required to allow an individual the option if they feel it would help them.