SWA 737 Burbank incident
12-08-2018, 08:05 PM
#232
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,895
Originally Posted by full of luv
Aren't you referring to South Dakota..... as in Ellsworth AFB vs Rapid City?
Originally Posted by exitrow
Can we just agree while we don't know all the facts in either incident we as professional pilots will stop and think twice before landing in heavy rain on a very short runway or long runway with decent crosswind? Just stop a second and think have I read this NTSB report before or how is this decision going to look in my NTSB report? Sure we can bash each other or as professionals we can simply try to learn
12-08-2018, 08:32 PM
#233
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,396
Short runway.
Wet/contaminated runway.
Tailwind.
Any one of these calls for vigilance, but not a big deal.
Any two requires a great deal of vigilance in most cases.
All three is a bad mix, not necessarily undoable, but my preference is to go around and maybe hold, or divert.
I'll have a talk with the CP any day rather than get myself, crew and pax into an untenable position.
Wet/contaminated runway.
Tailwind.
Any one of these calls for vigilance, but not a big deal.
Any two requires a great deal of vigilance in most cases.
All three is a bad mix, not necessarily undoable, but my preference is to go around and maybe hold, or divert.
I'll have a talk with the CP any day rather than get myself, crew and pax into an untenable position.
12-08-2018, 08:52 PM
#234
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 976
Originally Posted by WhaleSurfing
I have no idea what you’re talking about probation boy! Obviously your boyfriend works for Boeing as so many of your posts defend the plane maker. And yes, we pretty much do know what happened in the Lion Air crash.
It’s clear you have a love for Boeing and hate for WN. I understand the former but the latter must be because to see what’s on the horizon for AK. Yes pun intended.
It’s clear you have a love for Boeing and hate for WN. I understand the former but the latter must be because to see what’s on the horizon for AK. Yes pun intended.
No, you don't know what happened in the Lion Air crash.
12-09-2018, 10:54 AM
#237
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,841
Went to BUR after the incident and jotted down some real world numbers. Obv our data will be different because I’ve no idea what their ldg weight was.
We were in a -700 with a ldg weight of 123.0 with 138 pax. ATIS reporting clm winds (went to a 6 kt tailwind at 500’ that went away in the flare), landing rwy 8.
Flaps 40 data had a 132 kt approach speed. Didn’t need auto brakes but Max gave a 1200’ stopping margin.
Reran numbers while in cruise. No data returned with a 10 kt tailwind and 5/5/5 or 4/4/4 at our weight. Reran with 115k ldg weight: No tailwind and 5/5/5 gave around 600’ with auto brake Max. 10 kt tailwind and dry gave 880’ stopping margin with Max auto brakes.
Was a little sobering seeing the ruts in the EMAS as we taxied by. We were wondering if they skidded off centerline or swerved trying to avoid the red/white painted blast fence. The final report will be a interesting read.
We were in a -700 with a ldg weight of 123.0 with 138 pax. ATIS reporting clm winds (went to a 6 kt tailwind at 500’ that went away in the flare), landing rwy 8.
Flaps 40 data had a 132 kt approach speed. Didn’t need auto brakes but Max gave a 1200’ stopping margin.
Reran numbers while in cruise. No data returned with a 10 kt tailwind and 5/5/5 or 4/4/4 at our weight. Reran with 115k ldg weight: No tailwind and 5/5/5 gave around 600’ with auto brake Max. 10 kt tailwind and dry gave 880’ stopping margin with Max auto brakes.
Was a little sobering seeing the ruts in the EMAS as we taxied by. We were wondering if they skidded off centerline or swerved trying to avoid the red/white painted blast fence. The final report will be a interesting read.
12-09-2018, 11:45 AM
#238
Banned
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Posts: 1,182
Has anyone here ever executed a balked landing?
In my 40 year career, I can look back at two times I should have, but by the grace of God it worked out.
Once in MD-80 in JAX, landing downwind in rain. I was FO, and we litterally had to reverse and do a 3 point turn to get off the runway. I hung out the window and saw less than 2 feet of pavement in front of nose tire.
Second time in EWR, same scenario, with FO flying. Touch down and auto brakes selected. Realized we were not decelerating and applied max everything. Had just enough room at end to do a hard right, and exit.
Point here is we are usually dialed in to landing and sometimes become a passive participant sometime after touchdown.
I have since adopted the conventional landing gear philosophy, that I was taught decades ago.
Runway conditions, winds, aircraft systems and their integration is not an exact science, yet. It still requires some art.
We will likely be thanking those SWA pilots for reminding us we are human artists, and watch each other while we don’t put total faith in the technology.
In my 40 year career, I can look back at two times I should have, but by the grace of God it worked out.
Once in MD-80 in JAX, landing downwind in rain. I was FO, and we litterally had to reverse and do a 3 point turn to get off the runway. I hung out the window and saw less than 2 feet of pavement in front of nose tire.
Second time in EWR, same scenario, with FO flying. Touch down and auto brakes selected. Realized we were not decelerating and applied max everything. Had just enough room at end to do a hard right, and exit.
Point here is we are usually dialed in to landing and sometimes become a passive participant sometime after touchdown.
I have since adopted the conventional landing gear philosophy, that I was taught decades ago.
Runway conditions, winds, aircraft systems and their integration is not an exact science, yet. It still requires some art.
We will likely be thanking those SWA pilots for reminding us we are human artists, and watch each other while we don’t put total faith in the technology.
12-09-2018, 02:15 PM
#239
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: B777 Left
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by Rama
Short runway.
Wet/contaminated runway.
Tailwind.
Any one of these calls for vigilance, but not a big deal.
Any two requires a great deal of vigilance in most cases.
All three is a bad mix, not necessarily undoable, but my preference is to go around and maybe hold, or divert.
I'll have a talk with the CP any day rather than get myself, crew and pax into an untenable position.
Wet/contaminated runway.
Tailwind.
Any one of these calls for vigilance, but not a big deal.
Any two requires a great deal of vigilance in most cases.
All three is a bad mix, not necessarily undoable, but my preference is to go around and maybe hold, or divert.
I'll have a talk with the CP any day rather than get myself, crew and pax into an untenable position.
12-09-2018, 03:59 PM
#240
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,895
Originally Posted by BMEP100
Has anyone here ever executed a balked landing?
In my 40 year career, I can look back at two times I should have, but by the grace of God it worked out.
Once in MD-80 in JAX, landing downwind in rain. I was FO, and we litterally had to reverse and do a 3 point turn to get off the runway. I hung out the window and saw less than 2 feet of pavement in front of nose tire.
Second time in EWR, same scenario, with FO flying. Touch down and auto brakes selected. Realized we were not decelerating and applied max everything. Had just enough room at end to do a hard right, and exit.
Point here is we are usually dialed in to landing and sometimes become a passive participant sometime after touchdown.
I have since adopted the conventional landing gear philosophy, that I was taught decades ago.
Runway conditions, winds, aircraft systems and their integration is not an exact science, yet. It still requires some art.
We will likely be thanking those SWA pilots for reminding us we are human artists, and watch each other while we don’t put total faith in the technology.
In my 40 year career, I can look back at two times I should have, but by the grace of God it worked out.
Once in MD-80 in JAX, landing downwind in rain. I was FO, and we litterally had to reverse and do a 3 point turn to get off the runway. I hung out the window and saw less than 2 feet of pavement in front of nose tire.
Second time in EWR, same scenario, with FO flying. Touch down and auto brakes selected. Realized we were not decelerating and applied max everything. Had just enough room at end to do a hard right, and exit.
Point here is we are usually dialed in to landing and sometimes become a passive participant sometime after touchdown.
I have since adopted the conventional landing gear philosophy, that I was taught decades ago.
Runway conditions, winds, aircraft systems and their integration is not an exact science, yet. It still requires some art.
We will likely be thanking those SWA pilots for reminding us we are human artists, and watch each other while we don’t put total faith in the technology.
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