Go Back   Airline Pilot Central Forums - Find your next job as a Pilot > >
Safety Accidents, suggestions on improving safety, etc
 

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-06-2019, 07:17 AM   #11  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 424
Default

I was thinking of American 587. Its amazing how airliners can go from flying to stalling and into full pancake mode without dropping a wing.
kevbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 07:25 AM   #12  
Disinterested Third Party
 
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,331
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesabah View Post
I'm not a fan of the engineering behind the stick shaker activation. I would much rather have something along the lines of the Q-Alpha energy state indicator or similar. https://www.kansas.com/news/business...132377769.html
It also indicates how much float you will have at round out, possibly preventing runway overruns.
That comes down to simple airmanship. You don't need anything to tell you about energy state when landing to prevent an overrun. Fly the appropriate speed and AoA, and land, don't hold it off until midfield, and calculate the landing performance in advance. Now you know, before you go.

Simple airmanship.
JohnBurke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 07:38 AM   #13  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,367
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
That does depend on the aircraft though.
Its very aircraft dependent. In many if not a majority of aircraft ailerons introduce adverse yaw when deflected at high AOA. The quickest way to end up on your back in many high performance aircraft was using aileron to try and pick up a wing at high AOA.
sailingfun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 08:03 AM   #14  
Endeavah
 
Mesabah's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
That comes down to simple airmanship. You don't need anything to tell you about energy state when landing to prevent an overrun. Fly the appropriate speed and AoA, and land, don't hold it off until midfield, and calculate the landing performance in advance. Now you know, before you go.

Simple airmanship.
Unfortunately, some DO need these warning systems. The Colgan accident for example.
Mesabah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 09:08 AM   #15  
Gets Weekends Off
 
JamesNoBrakes's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,265
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
That comes down to simple airmanship. You don't need anything to tell you about energy state when landing to prevent an overrun. Fly the appropriate speed and AoA, and land, don't hold it off until midfield, and calculate the landing performance in advance. Now you know, before you go.

Simple airmanship.
And knowing...
JamesNoBrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 01:52 PM   #16  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Adlerdriver's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 777F FO
Posts: 3,209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesabah View Post
Unfortunately, some DO need these warning systems. The Colgan accident for example.
Because the warning system was used and heeded so effectively by the Colgan Captain? I have no problem with a stall warning system, but it's presence in no way guarantees a positive outcome as evidenced by the very accident you cite. A stall warning system doesn't do much good if the user ignores it and pulls harder.
Like JB said, it's simple airmanship. The ones who truly "need" such a warning system to be safe are probably in the wrong line of work.
Adlerdriver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 02:36 PM   #17  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 22,164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
True. I was specifically thinking of my former aircraft where at HIGH AOA (30+) you intentionally used the rudders for control. Influence with a tad of aileron; but control the turn/bank with the rudders. Once you were actually out-of-control then the second step of the immediate action was 'feet off the rudders'
So you're saying you had alpha?

https://youtu.be/335GdTqtyLs?t=59
rickair7777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 02:41 PM   #18  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 22,164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Because the warning system was used and heeded so effectively by the Colgan Captain? I have no problem with a stall warning system, but it's presence in no way guarantees a positive outcome as evidenced by the very accident you cite. A stall warning system doesn't do much good if the user ignores it and pulls harder.
Like JB said, it's simple airmanship. The ones who truly "need" such a warning system to be safe are probably in the wrong line of work.
Yeah giving the problem children more info won't usually solve the problem.
rickair7777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 02:50 PM   #19  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Because the warning system was used and heeded so effectively by the Colgan Captain? I have no problem with a stall warning system, but it's presence in no way guarantees a positive outcome as evidenced by the very accident you cite. A stall warning system doesn't do much good if the user ignores it and pulls harder.
Like JB said, it's simple airmanship. The ones who truly "need" such a warning system to be safe are probably in the wrong line of work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Yeah giving the problem children more info won't usually solve the problem.
And to take it an extreme case, IIRC, the AK C17 crash.
John Carr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 08:06 PM   #20  
Disinterested Third Party
 
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,331
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesabah View Post
Unfortunately, some DO need these warning systems. The Colgan accident for example.
No. Not remotely so.

For starters, that mishap had nothing to do with landing long or an overshoot, so the original assertion that additional displays indicating potential float at roundout" and overshoots, is irrelevant.

The colgan mishap had ample warning information, none of which was needed, and the reaction to that warning information was incorrect...all the way to impact.
JohnBurke is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
 

 
Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thoughts on this position RedOverWhite Corporate 8 05-02-2016 12:22 AM
PC's VIPs message, your thoughts? Hound Cargo 93 08-15-2014 05:32 PM
Stalls during turns N9373M Flight Schools and Training 17 08-25-2013 07:38 AM
Stalls at Night withthatsaid182 Flight Schools and Training 24 04-27-2009 01:34 PM
Stalls mcartier713 Flight Schools and Training 20 09-26-2007 07:55 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:47 AM.


vBulletin® v3.9.3.5, Copyright ©2000-2019, MH Sub I, LLC dba vBulletin
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright 2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1