thoughts on stalls
#31
Is it too much to ask professional pilots now to intuitively understand how a wing works, how to manage energy and anticipate changes in energy states? Is it too much to be trained not to panic in an entirely recoverable attitude?
Apparently it is. Sad, too.
GF
Apparently it is. Sad, too.
GF
#32
[QUOTE=JohnBurke;2777150]I'm familiar with it. It may have some merit for the lowest hanging fruit that can't fly an aircraft or maintain situational awareness or do their job at the most basic level...but such really ought not be in the cockpit in the first place. Renslow, for example. Given his wholly inappropriate response to impact, there is no reason to believe an annoying voice or additional flashing light would have made any difference. Everything he needed was already in front of him.
If you are advocating that we entirely change how we are recruiting and training pilots, as you can see from my multiple writings on the topic, I'm 100% onboard with that. If you are saying that the design of our aircraft is "good enough" and it is the fault of pilots that accidents are happening, I will STRONGLY disagree! Between our system design and training we are completely failing pilots (and the traveling public!).
As for the MIT workshop, that is your loss, and reflects more on you than anything else, sadly. I suggest you read my friend's article on the topic for a primer: https://aviationweek.com/business-av...-out-accidents
As for the MIT workshop, that is your loss, and reflects more on you than anything else, sadly. I suggest you read my friend's article on the topic for a primer: https://aviationweek.com/business-av...-out-accidents
#33
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
I don't see how this is any different from other warning systems, especially GPWS.
#34
Airspeed is right in front of you. Stick shaker is unmistakable. We’re taught stalls from about the second lesson.
GF
#36
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,003
I don't care if you're on board with it. You've drifted from gimmicks to altering the recruiting universe. Good luck with that.
There are those who advocate ballistic parachutes in lieu of skill, judgement, and thought, and we have an industry full of children of the magenta line. Why bother training pilots to recognize a stall, or approach to a stall, when we can have circles of lights flashing in their face, and a loud voice yelling at them? No need to calculate or pre-plan the descent; just wait for the FMC to calculate it. What else can we dumb down?
In the same time frame, I'm also skipping painting camp, baseball spring training, and an outstanding seminar on gastric distress. I'll spend some of that time at recurrent, some working, shoot a couple of steel matches, and write a chapter if there's time. If not doing what you'd prefer I'd be doing reflects badly on me because I choose not to go to a MIT workshop, that's too god damned bad.
#37
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,459
With the complete lack of awareness of what was happening, I think they would have ignored any other clues, no matter how verbal or obvious they would've been, in their desperate panic reaction to a situation they did not expect.
#38
I didn't say anything remotely close to an opinion regarding recruiting of pilot, so no, I'm not saying that at all. You're saying that. Speak for yourself.
I don't care if you're on board with it. You've drifted from gimmicks to altering the recruiting universe. Good luck with that.
There are those who advocate ballistic parachutes in lieu of skill, judgement, and thought, and we have an industry full of children of the magenta line. Why bother training pilots to recognize a stall, or approach to a stall, when we can have circles of lights flashing in their face, and a loud voice yelling at them? No need to calculate or pre-plan the descent; just wait for the FMC to calculate it. What else can we dumb down?
Good god. Get off your high horse.
In the same time frame, I'm also skipping painting camp, baseball spring training, and an outstanding seminar on gastric distress. I'll spend some of that time at recurrent, some working, shoot a couple of steel matches, and write a chapter if there's time. If not doing what you'd prefer I'd be doing reflects badly on me because I choose not to go to a MIT workshop, that's too god damned bad.
I don't care if you're on board with it. You've drifted from gimmicks to altering the recruiting universe. Good luck with that.
There are those who advocate ballistic parachutes in lieu of skill, judgement, and thought, and we have an industry full of children of the magenta line. Why bother training pilots to recognize a stall, or approach to a stall, when we can have circles of lights flashing in their face, and a loud voice yelling at them? No need to calculate or pre-plan the descent; just wait for the FMC to calculate it. What else can we dumb down?
Good god. Get off your high horse.
In the same time frame, I'm also skipping painting camp, baseball spring training, and an outstanding seminar on gastric distress. I'll spend some of that time at recurrent, some working, shoot a couple of steel matches, and write a chapter if there's time. If not doing what you'd prefer I'd be doing reflects badly on me because I choose not to go to a MIT workshop, that's too god damned bad.
As for the last part, this section of the board is about "suggestions for improving safety", and the workshop is about improving safety.
#39
The thing to remember with Colgan was that they were nowhere near a stall when the stick shaker went off. They were in a plane with no ice, but they had selected the vref ice speeds, so the stick shaker went off at higher speeds than their configuration/energy state warranted.
With the complete lack of awareness of what was happening, I think they would have ignored any other clues, no matter how verbal or obvious they would've been, in their desperate panic reaction to a situation they did not expect.
With the complete lack of awareness of what was happening, I think they would have ignored any other clues, no matter how verbal or obvious they would've been, in their desperate panic reaction to a situation they did not expect.
What I like about q-alpha is that it prevents the errant mental model in the first place. Ideally you have that an an AoA gauge that you are trained on.
Last edited by ptarmigan; 03-08-2019 at 04:20 AM.
#40
Second time was on the north coast of South America, entered the top of those equatorial clouds that don’t paint but hold a lot of bumps and warm air. Mach rapidly went away, the “eyebrow” starting coming down on the PFD and the slightest tickle of the shaker. Pushed over, as trained, to maintain some Mach and lost about 1200’ before we popped out of the cloud. We were at or just above optimum.
Both cases, if you missed the warnings, you’d have to be dead.
GF
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