Ethiopian 737 MAX 8 crash
#361
I fly in the US, yes. But I also have quite a bit of experience on how airlines operate in Western Europe.
A more holistic tally? You’re kidding, right?
That’s one year of statistics, and it bundles half of Russia and all of the old Soviet bloc countries into Europe.
Also, if you would add some Part 91 flying in the mix, stats would look different. A lot of Part 91 or 91k is considered CAT under EASA.
Now, if you look at page 26 you’ll see in 2013 per million sectors, US has over twice the hull loss rate compared to Europe. If we carve out Western Europe, things would look even more different.
One single event will skew these results because they are so rare.
The point I’m trying to make is, that both training philosophies can produce results that are equally safe. The big issue in the US right now is, that people will find bottom feeders who will hire and train anyone, no matter if they really belong in the cockpit or not, as long as they have enough pencil whipped hours in their logbook.
A more holistic tally? You’re kidding, right?
That’s one year of statistics, and it bundles half of Russia and all of the old Soviet bloc countries into Europe.
Also, if you would add some Part 91 flying in the mix, stats would look different. A lot of Part 91 or 91k is considered CAT under EASA.
Now, if you look at page 26 you’ll see in 2013 per million sectors, US has over twice the hull loss rate compared to Europe. If we carve out Western Europe, things would look even more different.
One single event will skew these results because they are so rare.
The point I’m trying to make is, that both training philosophies can produce results that are equally safe. The big issue in the US right now is, that people will find bottom feeders who will hire and train anyone, no matter if they really belong in the cockpit or not, as long as they have enough pencil whipped hours in their logbook.
#362
I can't fathom how any experienced, competent pilot would see any undesired trim movement, especially with the A/P off, and not immediately think "runaway trim," continuous or not.
Apparently, a jumpseater on Lion Air was able to figure it out, but the crew the next day was completely clueless.
Apparently, a jumpseater on Lion Air was able to figure it out, but the crew the next day was completely clueless.
#363
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,453
It covers more than just one year, you have to read which data is which. But I've been following this stuff for decades and it hasn't changed much. Europe lags behind the US on airline safety, period. Unless you just total up the crashes with no regard for the number departures/flight hours
#364
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 579
Much lower turnover, which is primarily due to attrition rather than matriculating from one airline to another.
I guess you’re a team player wanting to save. Your airline money... Go ahead... move from your airline, mid seniority range, to another at the bottom of the heap. Guess I’m not savvy to your U.S. airline pilot way of thinking.
I guess you’re a team player wanting to save. Your airline money... Go ahead... move from your airline, mid seniority range, to another at the bottom of the heap. Guess I’m not savvy to your U.S. airline pilot way of thinking.
Thanks dera, that makes sense and certainly changes the picture I had in mind.
#365
In the US, no C172 with five checkride busts is getting an airline seat, so that’s a silly argument.
I agree either the US training program or the outside ab initio system can produce safe air carrier pilots. But, someone who has spent loads of classroom time, some instructor-based sim and aircraft time to reach a “200 hour” MPL status has zero experience in the real world rough and tumble operational world. Very little! It’s all “paint by numbers” follow the script ability. Throw a spatial disorienting situation, multiple failures or an ATC curveball like a “slam dunk visual” and the brain circuit breakers start tripping. I’ve seen in the AF flying heavies, recent graduates have loads of answers, some great basic skills, but tell them 20 miles from the field to land visually and it gets interesting to watch. Safety has become very much a product of system reliability, operating within very tight controls.
GF
I agree either the US training program or the outside ab initio system can produce safe air carrier pilots. But, someone who has spent loads of classroom time, some instructor-based sim and aircraft time to reach a “200 hour” MPL status has zero experience in the real world rough and tumble operational world. Very little! It’s all “paint by numbers” follow the script ability. Throw a spatial disorienting situation, multiple failures or an ATC curveball like a “slam dunk visual” and the brain circuit breakers start tripping. I’ve seen in the AF flying heavies, recent graduates have loads of answers, some great basic skills, but tell them 20 miles from the field to land visually and it gets interesting to watch. Safety has become very much a product of system reliability, operating within very tight controls.
GF
#366
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,258
The 737 does not have that kind of feature. MCAS trims 2.5 units ND quickly. The rapidly spinning trim wheels and back pressure building in the yoke should be a small clue it’s a trim issue.
#367
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 165
#368
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,453
#369
I know from being on the OEM side, the safety offices at all the manufacturers were concerned about pilot training and experience levels 8-10 years ago. We were watching the generational turnover and dearth of new starts wondering how it play out. Incidents showed the trend line years ago especially at regionals.
GF
#370
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,453
Meanwhile getting hired with multiple felonies, prison time etc is not an issue today. And the regionals will push you through, if you fail at first, another one will give you a second chance. And just like Frank Abagnale passed the bar, “try it often enough and you will pass”, they too will hit the line.
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