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Ethiopian 737 MAX 8 crash

Old 04-05-2019, 09:19 PM
  #521  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Of course their efforts weren't working. They had the long forgotten throttles locked in the forward position, driving the aircraft to and past VMO. They needed to SLOW DOWN - just like anyone else trying to deal with a runaway stab situation and requirements to use the manual trim wheels. That was the "tool" to which they need to resort - flying the aircraft. Yoke, throttles, pitch, power, CRM... basics. Turning a failed system back on was not the "only other tool".

It's amazing anyone here is actually claiming that it's understandable that a fully trained 737 crew of a national airline can ignore their airspeed during this event for 6 minutes. There's no excuse. None.
I have a question. Perhaps a stupid one. And please humbly disabuse (and kindly if you can manage it, though I will not take it personally if this is beyond your abilities, a situation I myself have encountered and failed at, though I endeavour to better myself) me of my ignorance if it is a stupid one. If at or near VMO at that density altitude, with full down trim on the horizontal stab, what back pressure on the yoke is required to maintain level flight? Let alone climb? Is it even possible to maintain altitude under this configuration? Has anyone replicated this situation in a sim? Might it be worth understanding the aircraft's flight characteristics in this particular flight regime before passing judgment on the deceased's attempts to remedy the situation they were presented with?
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:25 PM
  #522  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
You seem to have a problem with someone calling a spade a spade.
I'm not excusing any accidents in particular. Many here, including you, seem to want to give these guys a pass and put all the blame on Boeing. I'm just not feeling as forgiving and "it could happen to anyone" as some of the bleeding hearts here seem to be. Based on the clear evidence provided by the FDR, it's my opinion (and I'm not the only one) that these two pilots screwed up badly. The media firestorm and the myriad of "experts" spouting BS about MCAS have turned this into a sympathy party for pilots who should have been able to handle a relatively basic malfunction.
Boeing did a terrible job with this system and they should share the blame for these accidents because a single point, single input failure is an amazingly stupid design. But all that did was drastically raise the probability of a runaway stabilizer event happening on these aircraft. That malfunction is not an unrecoverable event and in the hands of a competent crew should have ended in a safe landing. If you actually think that this outcome could happen to you under the same circumstances, then you really should choose another line of work.
The two FedEx pilots in Narita should have chosen another line of work. Unfortunately they didn’t and it didn’t work out for them.

Go arounds are pretty simple if you don’t PIO yourself into the ground. I’m sure you share the same sentiment though about that accident.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:30 PM
  #523  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
You seem to have a problem with someone calling a spade a spade.
I'm not excusing any accidents in particular. Many here, including you, seem to want to give these guys a pass and put all the blame on Boeing. I'm just not feeling as forgiving and "it could happen to anyone" as some of the bleeding hearts here seem to be. Based on the clear evidence provided by the FDR, it's my opinion (and I'm not the only one) that these two pilots screwed up badly. The media firestorm and the myriad of "experts" spouting BS about MCAS have turned this into a sympathy party for pilots who should have been able to handle a relatively basic malfunction.
Boeing did a terrible job with this system and they should share the blame for these accidents because a single point, single input failure is an amazingly stupid design. But all that did was drastically raise the probability of a runaway stabilizer event happening on these aircraft. That malfunction is not an unrecoverable event and in the hands of a competent crew should have ended in a safe landing. If you actually think that this outcome could happen to you under the same circumstances, then you really should choose another line of work.
No I don't. My words a few pages back, I said it's a 70/30 split. That's not a free pass. Boeing put the pilots in a position where their training and experience, both sufficient to operate a transport category jet, couldn't save them.

"That malfunction is not an unrecoverable event". Somehow the entire industry disagrees with you right now. But I'm glad you know better with your vast experience and multiple occasions when this happened to you.

Fact is - you know jack sh*t about what happened in that cockpit. You've read a prelim report with only very few facts about the chain of events. So you saying it was a "relatively basic malfunction" just shows how little you understand about aviation accidents.

No-one is giving anyone a free pass, pilot error played a big role in this. But the more important question is, why did it happen, and why did the plane fail in a way where multiple trained and qualified crews failed to save the day?
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:34 PM
  #524  
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Originally Posted by cencal83406 View Post
The two FedEx pilots in Narita should have chosen another line of work. Unfortunately they didn’t and it didn’t work out for them.

Go arounds are pretty simple if you don’t PIO yourself into the ground. I’m sure you share the same sentiment though about that accident.
And UPS too. UPS1354, sequencing an approach is pretty simple.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:40 PM
  #525  
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Originally Posted by Chris Close View Post
If at or near VMO at that density altitude, with full down trim on the horizontal stab, what back pressure on the yoke is required to maintain level flight? Let alone climb? Is it even possible to maintain altitude under this configuration?
Why do we need to entertain a scenario that starts with an aircraft at an airspeed it should never have attained in the first place if the pilots were actually flying it? To answer your question though, once they turned the cut-out switches off, the aircraft was controllable, more so if it had been slowed to a normal, appropriate speed. Choosing (or simply allowing by inattention) the airspeed to increase beyond redline introduced aerodynamic forces that exceeded manual trim ability, introduced issues like Mach tuck and turned the situation into an unrecoverable event. That’s still on the pilots, not some random, uncontrollable outside forces. Fly the airplane.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:43 PM
  #526  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Why do we need to entertain a scenario that starts with an aircraft at an airspeed it should never have attained in the first place if the pilots were actually flying it? To answer your question though, once they turned the cut-out switches off, the aircraft was controllable, more so if it had been slowed to a normal, appropriate speed. Choosing (or simply allowing by inattention) the airspeed to increase beyond redline introduced aerodynamic forces that exceeded manual trim ability, introduced issues like Mach tuck and turned the situation into an unrecoverable event. That’s still on the pilots, not some random, uncontrollable outside forces. Fly the airplane.
Do you go pee on the graves of the FedEx and UPS pilots too, who failed to fly the airplane in "simple situations" too?
You're a d*ck.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:52 PM
  #527  
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Originally Posted by cencal83406 View Post
The two FedEx pilots in Narita should have chosen another line of work. Unfortunately they didn’t and it didn’t work out for them.

Go arounds are pretty simple if you don’t PIO yourself into the ground. I’m sure you share the same sentiment though about that accident.
Not really sure what your point is. They screwed up and paid with their lives. Same with UPS.
My comment was aimed at you and your constant attempt to paint these pilots in the Max as victims. They could have survived that flight by flying the aircraft.
I’m sorry that offends you but it’s the truth. Acknowledging pilot error in any accident isn’t ****ing on anyone’s grave. Death doesn’t absolve the pilots of their responsibility in the outcome. Each flight isn’t a crap shoot with an outcome decided by pure luck. We bring our A-game and in most situations determine what happens with it.

Last edited by Adlerdriver; 04-05-2019 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:59 PM
  #528  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Not really sure what your point is. They screwed up and paid with their lives. Same with UPS.
My comment was aimed at you and your constant attempt to paint these pilots in the Max as victims. They could have survived that flight by flying the aircraft.
I’m sorry that offends you but it’s the truth. Acknowledging pilot error in any accident isn’t ****ing on anyone’s grave. Death doesn’t absolve the pilots of their responsibility in the outcome. Each flight isn’t a crap shoot with an outcome decided by pure luck. We bring our A-game and in most situations determine what happens with it.
The aircraft is still in violation of FAR 25 even if the pilots could have done a better job.
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:34 PM
  #529  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Maybe plummeting towards the ground with insufficient pitch up response?

Yes they could have spun the wheel by hand, but maybe they didn't think that was fast enough?
Probably not a good time to invent a new procedure.

I don't think there's anywhere in the procedure that calls for accelerating to 600 knots at max power, either.

Originally Posted by Chris Close View Post
If at or near VMO at that density altitude, with full down trim on the horizontal stab, what back pressure on the yoke is required to maintain level flight? Let alone climb? Is it even possible to maintain altitude under this configuration?
The aircraft should never be allowed to get to that condition in the first place.

MCAS doesn't run full nose-down trim. It can be stopped long before it gets there using standard procedures, and excess pitch force isn't an issue until excess speed is allowed to develop.

Fly the airplane.

Put an actual qualified pilot in the seat.

Last edited by JohnBurke; 04-05-2019 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 04-06-2019, 12:46 AM
  #530  
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post

The aircraft should never be allowed to get to that condition in the first place.
Let's back it up even further. The airplane shouldn't have malfunctioned in such an unknown and severe way at a critical phase of flight.

Your quote is absolutely correct. Boeing should have never allowed that aircraft to get to that condition in the first place.

The accident report will have a primary cause. Without a massive engineering failure that is MCAS running off a single failed AOA, there would be no consequential inability to control the aircraft.
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