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Ethiopian 737 MAX 8 crash

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Ethiopian 737 MAX 8 crash

Old 03-21-2019, 06:55 AM
  #341  
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Originally Posted by JayMahon View Post
Just read that the FO only had 200 hours of flight time. Apparently Sully made a facebook comment on it. That's abysmally low. I wasn't aware that some international outfits flew folks with such low credentials.
Some? A better adjective would probably be "Most".

That's probably why US airline aviation is safer than all the rest. Even safer than European airlines by a measurable margin. A few exceptions which tend to hire the cream of their respective crops such as BA, LH, KL, QF.

Culturally in the US the SIC is a backup PIC. In many other places the CA is God and the SIC is just a switch monkey. If that's how you're raised and treated, it's hard to suddenly switch gears and rise to the occasion when needed.

As a PIC, you should always encourage mental engagement in decision making from your SIC... you're a planting a seed that may save your butt at harvest time.
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bugeatr View Post
Just read that according to the cockpit recorder that one pilot was going through the QRH and the other was praying, why in the world was runaway trim not a memory item. Just asking, I'm only a private pilot so put away the knives.
It is a memory item in all of the conventional types I've flown.

But runaway trim was ALWAYS defined to be continuous elevator trim motion. There was never any consideration of a runaway that would stop and then start up again. It wasn't realistically likely until MCAS, and of course nobody even knew about MCAS initially.

Elevator trim (typically actually stabilizer trim in transport aircraft) is the only trim of real concern. Other trims you can overpower, but in most jets you have two separate pitch control surfaces. The trim moves the entire H. stab, while the elevator control (ie yoke) moves just the elevator. If the stabilizer is grossly out of position even full elevator might not overcome it. Two notable accidents occurred because of catastrophic mechanical failure in the stab trim control mechanism (jackscrew), allowing the H. stab to move grossly out of normal position.
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:23 AM
  #343  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Some? A better adjective would probably be "Most".

That's probably why US airline aviation is safer than all the rest. Even safer than European airlines by a measurable margin. A few exceptions which tend to hire the cream of their respective crops such as BA, LH, KL, QF.

Culturally in the US the SIC is a backup PIC. In many other places the CA is God and the SIC is just a switch monkey. If that's how you're raised and treated, it's hard to suddenly switch gears and rise to the occasion when needed.

As a PIC, you should always encourage mental engagement in decision making from your SIC... you're a planting a seed that may save your butt at harvest time.
Though I get the attraction of being a low-time pilot and getting paid to gain hours in a large turbine, like a 737, I can't imagine many US pilots are going to these companies to gain hours. The prospect is terrifying.
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:30 AM
  #344  
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Originally Posted by JayMahon View Post
Though I get the attraction of being a low-time pilot and getting paid to gain hours in a large turbine, like a 737, I can't imagine many US pilots are going to these companies to gain hours. The prospect is terrifying.
Some do, I've known several. All were dual citizens so they had an "in" at the entry level. If you're not a local citizen, you typically need US airline experience before you can get hired overseas, so several thousand hours in that case. To be an ex-pat CA you need PIC time in type.
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:30 AM
  #345  
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He held a MPL (multi pilot license). Its beyond troubling to know the SIC doesn’t even have the license to fly a Cessna 172 by himself and likely never will while he progresses up to the day he becomes Captain.
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Some? A better adjective would probably be "Most".

That's probably why US airline aviation is safer than all the rest. Even safer than European airlines by a measurable margin. A few exceptions which tend to hire the cream of their respective crops such as BA, LH, KL, QF.

Culturally in the US the SIC is a backup PIC. In many other places the CA is God and the SIC is just a switch monkey. If that's how you're raised and treated, it's hard to suddenly switch gears and rise to the occasion when needed.

As a PIC, you should always encourage mental engagement in decision making from your SIC... you're a planting a seed that may save your butt at harvest time.
All of the airlines you mentioned have 200-300 hour guys on the right seat. Difference is, their selection process makes US legacy interviews look like kindergarten admission.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by dera View Post
All of the airlines you mentioned have 200-300 hour guys on the right seat. Difference is, their selection process makes US legacy interviews look like kindergarten admission.
Selection based on what? High school grades? SAT scores?

That plus a detailed theory-heavy ground school and written test regimen is not a substitute for experience.

They don't use that system because it's better, they use it because it's CHEAPER. They don't have a significant pool of military and GA pilots to draw from, so the only way to get experienced pilots would be to pay for their experience.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dera View Post
All of the airlines you mentioned have 200-300 hour guys on the right seat. Difference is, their selection process makes US legacy interviews look like kindergarten admission.
Sooo.... they're SUPER picky about who they allow to sit in the right seat... but don't care that they are hiring people with only 200 hours of experience?

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Old 03-21-2019, 09:57 AM
  #349  
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Originally Posted by JayMahon View Post
Though I get the attraction of being a low-time pilot and getting paid to gain hours in a large turbine, like a 737, I can't imagine many US pilots are going to these companies to gain hours. The prospect is terrifying.
thats the European model. They say they cant help it and so man the f/0 seats with severly underqualified neophytes. they insist they cant get higher time pilots, and maybe they cant.

The Germanwings FO nut job was a perfect example of their desperation.

Guy shouldnt have been anywhere near an airplane. But he fit right in over there.

I was on a European pilot forum at the time and as soon as I brought the subject up, they banned me. I wasnt alone. There was a British University professor who made the point with stats and statistical analysis, and they promptly banned her as well. They dont wanta talk about it.

As for American pilots not going for it: not buying that either. I would have swam to Europe for a low time right seat airline job.

Most would, imo.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:58 AM
  #350  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Selection based on what? High school grades? SAT scores?

That plus a detailed theory-heavy ground school and written test regimen is not a substitute for experience.

They don't use that system because it's better, they use it because it's CHEAPER. They don't have a significant pool of military and GA pilots to draw from, so the only way to get experienced pilots would be to pay for their experience.

How are “SAT” scores relevant in Europe?
Cheaper, no way.

Have you seen the selection process for European major airlines? It’s a multi day event with multiple psych evals, aptitude tests, interview panels, crm excercises etc. Chances of getting in with a fresh fATPL outside their ab initio programs are slim.
And in many cases, the airline pays for your training. Cheaper, heck no.
It’s a different training philosophy, most of the safest airlines in the world use it, so clearly it is working.
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