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-   -   Boeing's "mgmt revolution" created MAX disast (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/124253-boeings-mgmt-revolution-created-max-disast.html)

SonicFlyer 09-22-2019 02:19 PM

Boeing's "mgmt revolution" created MAX disast
 
An interesting opinion piece:


https://newrepublic.com/article/1549...=pocket-newtab

ChecklistMonkey 09-22-2019 04:06 PM

"and indeed, much of the software on the MAX had been engineered by recent grads of Indian software-coding academies making as little as $9 an hour,"

Xtreme87 09-22-2019 04:21 PM

The US has entered into the age of post-capitalism. Where innovation, quality, and safety have all been replaced, eroded by greed. Profits drive everything. The problem is that it can work for most other industries because you can buy some politicians and just keep trucking along, but it can’t work in aviation. The margin of error is much smaller than in other business.

You can see the same happening with these god awful GTF engines that have been rushed to market, squeezed to the breaking point, now all the cost savings from these engines have been wiped out for the foreseeable future.

ShyGuy 09-24-2019 12:12 AM


Originally Posted by ChecklistMonkey (Post 2891532)
"and indeed, much of the software on the MAX had been engineered by recent grads of Indian software-coding academies making as little as $9 an hour,"

I like how that has taken off in America like "OMG! Underpaid engineers at $9/hr."


Meanwhile, in India, that salary is on the higher end for an software engineers when converted to ruppees, and above what 99.99% of what the average Indian make.

$9/hr is $1560/month which in Indian Rupees is 110,535 rupees/month. I'm not saying these guys were overpaid, nor am I saying they don't deserve higher pay. Just keep in mind, they made in 1 month what the average Indian makes in 1 yr.

"Financial Year 2015-2016. India's per capita income (nominal) was $1670 per year in 2016, ranked at 112th out of 164 countries by the World Bank"

rickair7777 09-24-2019 08:21 AM


Originally Posted by Xtreme87 (Post 2891541)
The US has entered into the age of post-capitalism. Where innovation, quality, and safety have all been replaced, eroded by greed. Profits drive everything. The problem is that it can work for most other industries because you can buy some politicians and just keep trucking along, but it can’t work in aviation. The margin of error is much smaller than in other business.

You can see the same happening with these god awful GTF engines that have been rushed to market, squeezed to the breaking point, now all the cost savings from these engines have been wiped out for the foreseeable future.

Some top business leaders have recognized this, and the pendulum may be swinging back a bit.

rickair7777 09-24-2019 08:24 AM


Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 2892333)
Meanwhile, in India, that salary is on the higher end for an software engineers when converted to ruppees, and above what 99.99% of what the average Indian make.

Bad comparison. The "average indian" lives in third world rural poverty. But there are still hundreds of millions of Indians who have education and economic opportunities resembling ours.

With India (and a few other countries) you kind of have to consider the modest-sized middle-class separately from the vast poverty class.

ShyGuy 09-24-2019 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2892490)
Bad comparison. The "average indian" lives in third world rural poverty. But there are still hundreds of millions of Indians who have education and economic opportunities resembling ours.

With India (and a few other countries) you kind of have to consider the modest-sized middle-class separately from the vast poverty class.

The $9/hr headline just sounds like a juicy tidbit for the media to headline. Even compared among software engineers, it’s a competitive salary for that country.

Slaphappy 09-24-2019 10:41 AM


Originally Posted by Xtreme87 (Post 2891541)
The US has entered into the age of post-capitalism. Where innovation, quality, and safety have all been replaced, eroded by greed. Profits drive everything. The problem is that it can work for most other industries because you can buy some politicians and just keep trucking along, but it can’t work in aviation. The margin of error is much smaller than in other business.

You can see the same happening with these god awful GTF engines that have been rushed to market, squeezed to the breaking point, now all the cost savings from these engines have been wiped out for the foreseeable future.

That's incorrect, we are seeing capitalism working as intended. Boeing is not wanting to compete and its causing them to fail. Capitalism is why Airbus is kicking Boeing's ass and it's why Boeing's mediocre products are failing.

PerfInit 09-24-2019 11:49 AM

^^^ Comparing Boeing to Airbus is apples to oranges. Boeing is not owned or run by the Federal Government.

SonicFlyer 09-24-2019 05:19 PM


Originally Posted by PerfInit (Post 2892641)
^^^ Comparing Boeing to Airbus is apples to oranges. Boeing is not owned or run by the Federal Government.

Not directly, but they get a ton of subsidies and contracts from the US federal government.

galaxy flyer 09-25-2019 08:14 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2892490)
Bad comparison. The "average indian" lives in third world rural poverty. But there are still hundreds of millions of Indians who have education and economic opportunities resembling ours.

With India (and a few other countries) you kind of have to consider the modest-sized middle-class separately from the vast poverty class.

India is a first world country for about 100 million and third world (or worse) for 1.1 billion. Some of the best hotels and restaurants I’ve ever patronized were in India.

Flightcap 10-03-2019 04:03 AM

It doesn't matter whether they paid them $9/hr or $30/hour. The reality with outsourcing work like that is there is always some level of language barrier and teamwork challenges due to the long distance and cultural differences. Combined it always results in a risk to the overall quality of work regardless of how skilled the technicians may be. Boeing didn't outsource because they would get better work. They outsourced because it was cheaper. That's the bottom line.

ShyGuy 10-08-2019 04:22 PM


Originally Posted by Flightcap (Post 2897460)
It doesn't matter whether they paid them $9/hr or $30/hour. The reality with outsourcing work like that is there is always some level of language barrier and teamwork challenges due to the long distance and cultural differences. Combined it always results in a risk to the overall quality of work regardless of how skilled the technicians may be. Boeing didn't outsource because they would get better work. They outsourced because it was cheaper. That's the bottom line.

Not just Boeing. The entire American middle class jobs of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s have been shipped overseas because of cost and the work done there is cheaper.

rickair7777 08-24-2021 06:37 AM

FAA is investigating Boeing after 1/3 of surveyed employees reported "undue pressure and transparency issues". Sigh.

Exclusive article on WSJ homepage (paywall).

Excargodog 08-24-2021 07:56 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3284175)
FAA is investigating Boeing after 1/3 of surveyed employees reported "undue pressure and transparency issues". Sigh.

Exclusive article on WSJ homepage (paywall).

not as good as the WSJ article but no paywall issues:

https://www.ruetir.com/2021/08/24/av...cturer-boeing/

https://tv6.news/us-aviation-watchdo...ure-at-boeing/

rickair7777 10-08-2021 09:16 AM

Boeing HQ a "ghost town", as managers shift focus to production facilities. Maybe a turn in the right direction...


https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...ft-2021-10-07/

Excargodog 10-08-2021 10:22 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3306182)
Boeing HQ a "ghost town", as managers shift focus to production facilities. Maybe a turn in the right direction...


https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...ft-2021-10-07/


https://i.ibb.co/QmhjxLt/D103-C8-EC-...8-DFCDF1-F.jpg

As the band plays, ‘Nearer my God to Thee’ despite a slight list to port and as the bow finally starts sliding under the water with all lifeboats capable of being launched already long since launched, and hundreds of passengers left aboard staring at them helplessly, the Captain and crew wonder if perhaps they should have taken those iceberg warnings just a little more seriously…


Seriously, you could NUKE Boeing headquarters and it’s major production facilities that - you know, DO THE ACTUAL WORK - wouldn’t even hear the bang. What WERE those guys thinking?


https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/..._crew_changes/

jaxsurf 10-08-2021 10:26 AM

What a turd of a company. Such a shame.

TransWorld 10-08-2021 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3306182)
Boeing HQ a "ghost town", as managers shift focus to production facilities. Maybe a turn in the right direction...

https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...ft-2021-10-07/

As I saw it from my vantage point living in St. Louis at the time, two purposes were clear:

1. Going to a neutral town, neither Seattle nor St. Louis, showed that neither won. Of course everyone understood Boeing bought McD-D. Boeing won.

2. Going to a non manufacturing town gets the big bosses out of touch with manufacturing and engineering. Can you imagine Bill Boeing or James McDonnell not being able to go out and “kick the tires” on a regular basis? The change resulted in a focus on pencil pushing accounting and legal. The real part of the business was at arms length. Out of sight, out of mind. It would reach out and bite them. And it has.

As they are talking about, a decentralized subHQ support (maybe less than 100) with one to three main HQs, all located by the engineers and manufacturing are the only ways to start to turn it around.

captjns 10-09-2021 04:56 AM

You will understand, why Boeing management team has become so incompetent over the years, after you watch the movie clip from Back to School. You have to get past the commercial, however.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=uSLscJ2cY04&feature=share

Excargodog 10-14-2021 12:24 PM

https://i.ibb.co/T0Chg32/DD433933-EB...5-FA3-E8-B.jpg

Excargodog 10-14-2021 04:44 PM

https://i.ibb.co/PQZXZpD/1-DF3-DD9-F...-B98508-A9.jpg


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