Delta Dumps Fuel on LAX Children
01-15-2020, 07:41 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,278
Originally Posted by dera
What's the clean speed for MTOW 777, 275 or so? That's the max they can legally do.
They were "slowing down" to 280. I stand corrected if it's over 280.
They were "slowing down" to 280. I stand corrected if it's over 280.
01-15-2020, 08:48 AM
#12
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,468
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
Do you understand what emergency authority means? We had a minor bleed issue and the QRH directed us to avoid icing conditions. We declared an emergency in order to descend at 320 KIAS below 10,000 to minimize our time in the clouds.
Chief counsel disagrees with the comments here. But that's not relevant to the event, so let's discuss something else.
01-15-2020, 09:49 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Supine
Posts: 250
Originally Posted by dera
I know. They were 250+ before they declared emergency.
Chief counsel disagrees with the comments here. But that's not relevant to the event, so let's discuss something else.
Chief counsel disagrees with the comments here. But that's not relevant to the event, so let's discuss something else.
Would you extend flaps to be able to fly at 200, or would you keep the wing clean and fly at 215?
The same answer applies to the 250 below 10,000 rule.
01-15-2020, 10:03 AM
#14
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,468
Originally Posted by Singlecoil
Let's say you are flying under Class B airspace and your clean maneuver speed is 215.
Would you extend flaps to be able to fly at 200, or would you keep the wing clean and fly at 215?
The same answer applies to the 250 below 10,000 rule.
Would you extend flaps to be able to fly at 200, or would you keep the wing clean and fly at 215?
The same answer applies to the 250 below 10,000 rule.
01-15-2020, 10:20 AM
#16
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,468
Originally Posted by captjns
Not according to 91.117(d)
"Therefore, the pilot must operate the aircraft in the configuration to meet the requirements".
We are having pilot deviations from the topic so let's not ruin this thread any further.
01-15-2020, 11:43 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: On the hotel shuttle
Posts: 5,812
Originally Posted by dera
The Chief Counsel says yes, you do extend the flaps.
As with a lot of things aviation, local tribal knowledge takes over and POI's interpret things their own way. This procedure has disappeared from manuals and the "min clean is fine" technique has become the norm.
The FAA is obviously fine with it, notwithstanding their assistant chief counsel.
"Section 91.117 does not distinguish requirements based on the aircraft's configuration during different portions of the operation. Under the scenario you describe, the aircraft can in fact be configured to operate in accordance with the speed restrictions of paragraph (b). Therefore, the pilot must operate the aircraft in the configuration to meet the requirements unless the minimum safe airspeed for that operation is greater than 200 knots. If so, then the aircraft can be operated at the minimum safe airspeed, in accordance with paragraph (d)."
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf�
01-15-2020, 12:17 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,909
Originally Posted by dera
If the airplane can be configured to that speed, you must fly that speed.
"Therefore, the pilot must operate the aircraft in the configuration to meet the requirements".
We are having pilot deviations from the topic so let's not ruin this thread any further.
"Therefore, the pilot must operate the aircraft in the configuration to meet the requirements".
We are having pilot deviations from the topic so let's not ruin this thread any further.
01-16-2020, 11:31 AM
#19
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,468
Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
Actually, Dera is correct here. According to the FAA Counsel's interpretation, we are required to configure in order to maintain 200/250 kts -- unless authorized by ATC.
As with a lot of things aviation, local tribal knowledge takes over and POI's interpret things their own way. This procedure has disappeared from manuals and the "min clean is fine" technique has become the norm.
The FAA is obviously fine with it, notwithstanding their assistant chief counsel.
"Section 91.117 does not distinguish requirements based on the aircraft's configuration during different portions of the operation. Under the scenario you describe, the aircraft can in fact be configured to operate in accordance with the speed restrictions of paragraph (b). Therefore, the pilot must operate the aircraft in the configuration to meet the requirements unless the minimum safe airspeed for that operation is greater than 200 knots. If so, then the aircraft can be operated at the minimum safe airspeed, in accordance with paragraph (d)."
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf�
As with a lot of things aviation, local tribal knowledge takes over and POI's interpret things their own way. This procedure has disappeared from manuals and the "min clean is fine" technique has become the norm.
The FAA is obviously fine with it, notwithstanding their assistant chief counsel.
"Section 91.117 does not distinguish requirements based on the aircraft's configuration during different portions of the operation. Under the scenario you describe, the aircraft can in fact be configured to operate in accordance with the speed restrictions of paragraph (b). Therefore, the pilot must operate the aircraft in the configuration to meet the requirements unless the minimum safe airspeed for that operation is greater than 200 knots. If so, then the aircraft can be operated at the minimum safe airspeed, in accordance with paragraph (d)."
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf�
I know it is common practice, but at the same time, it's good to know what the Chief Counsel thinks about it.
01-16-2020, 11:33 AM
#20
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,468
Originally Posted by captjns
Never had an issue departing PHNL nor PANC... By the grace of the Sky Gods, and this has been my experience from the mid ‘90s to the present, both FAA and Expat Ops.
Just call it "Southwest 250".
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