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-   -   737-400 cargo jet emergency landing in ocean (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/134279-737-400-cargo-jet-emergency-landing-ocean.html)

andreas500 07-02-2021 06:44 AM

737-400 cargo jet emergency landing in ocean
 
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/02/boei...-faa-says.html

Actually a Boeing 737-200C flying for Transair

Jetpowered 07-02-2021 07:03 AM

Hawaii [Cargo] 737 crash
 
https://bnonews.com/index.php/2021/0...es-off-hawaii/

Hopscotch 07-02-2021 07:17 AM

"Rose Express 810" starts just before 3:00 minute mark
https://archive.liveatc.net/phnl/PHN...y5_but6E6_VxRU

sailingfun 07-02-2021 07:21 AM


Originally Posted by Jetpowered (Post 3258008)

Glad the pilots got out safe! New dive site!

JamesNoBrakes 07-02-2021 07:34 AM

Sometimes cargo flights also carry a loadmaster. Hope those were the only two people on board.

rickair7777 07-02-2021 07:53 AM

Reported both engines failed. Hmmm. Don't recall seeing many geese around Pearl.

hydrostream 07-02-2021 08:59 AM

Landed in the water in the dark of the night and made it out. Wow.

captive apple 07-02-2021 09:02 AM

I don’t know, I’m in favor of the emergency aircraft getting to finish their transmissions.
Glad they made it.

Av8tr1 07-02-2021 09:19 AM


Originally Posted by captive apple (Post 3258081)
I don’t know, I’m in favor of the emergency aircraft getting to finish their transmissions.
Glad they made it.

Right???? WTH? Sounded like she kept cutting 810 off before they finished the call.

JohnnyBekkestad 07-02-2021 09:25 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3258042)
Reported both engines failed. Hmmm. Don't recall seeing many geese around Pearl.

something tells me this has to do with some kind of fuel starvation. No fuel, leak or contamination.

rickair7777 07-02-2021 09:28 AM


Originally Posted by captive apple (Post 3258081)
I don’t know, I’m in favor of the emergency aircraft getting to finish their transmissions.
Glad they made it.


Originally Posted by Av8tr1 (Post 3258088)
Right???? WTH? Sounded like she kept cutting 810 off before they finished the call.

No kidding. Wouldn't want to be married to her.

rickair7777 07-02-2021 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes (Post 3258028)
Sometimes cargo flights also carry a loadmaster. Hope those were the only two people on board.

Fortunately they reported two souls to ATC.

Smooth at FL450 07-02-2021 10:16 AM


Originally Posted by Av8tr1 (Post 3258088)
Right???? WTH? Sounded like she kept cutting 810 off before they finished the call.

maybe it was because she saw them turning right into Rhodes 809 who was on a visual approach for 4R? 1 controller handling multiple frequencies…

galaxy flyer 07-02-2021 11:30 AM


Originally Posted by Smooth at FL450 (Post 3258121)
maybe it was because she saw them turning right into Rhodes 809 who was on a visual approach for 4R? 1 controller handling multiple frequencies…

I’m trying to figure how two pilots who fly in/out of PHNL repeatedly, cannot figure out where the airport they just took off is NOW, 3 minutes later. It didn’t move.

AirBear 07-02-2021 11:35 AM


Originally Posted by JohnnyBekkestad (Post 3258091)
something tells me this has to do with some kind of fuel starvation. No fuel, leak or contamination.

They told ATC they had 2 hours of fuel onboard. This was a 46 yr old jet so who knows. The 737's are operated by Rhoades Aviation d/b/a Transair. They had 5 of them.

nightsky2 07-02-2021 11:58 AM


Originally Posted by galaxy flyer (Post 3258159)
I’m trying to figure how two pilots who fly in/out of PHNL repeatedly, cannot figure out where the airport they just took off is NOW, 3 minutes later. It didn’t move.

I've been flying in and out of HNL for years. There are times when the clouds move in below and although the airport itself is reporting VMC you can't see it. Frequently at night it can be as simple as the angle you're trying to see it from. IAW everybody else can see it but you.

ugleeual 07-02-2021 12:32 PM


Originally Posted by nightsky2 (Post 3258171)
I've been flying in and out of HNL for years. There are times when the clouds move in below and although the airport itself is reporting VMC you can't see it. Frequently at night it can be as simple as the angle you're trying to see it from. IAW everybody else can see it but you.

exactly what I think… cloud layer below them… couldn’t see other than the two mountain ranges poking through. What eva the case… the pilots sounded pretty calm considering the gravity of the problem.

TiredSoul 07-02-2021 12:54 PM


Originally Posted by galaxy flyer (Post 3258159)
I’m trying to figure how two pilots who fly in/out of PHNL repeatedly, cannot figure out where the airport they just took off is NOW, 3 minutes later. It didn’t move.

Your mind going 1000 miles an hour, your gut realizing today might be the day you don’t go home….you may not be able to pick it out among the sea of lights.

Duckdude 07-02-2021 01:05 PM

I’m going to stick up for the controller here. She was working Honolulu Approach, Departure, Tower, and Ground on more than one frequency. She was coordinating with the airport fire department and the coast guard. She wasn’t perfect, but I think she handled a very stressful situation quite well.

AirBear 07-02-2021 01:48 PM

Interview with the Coast Guard Helicopter Pilots who rescued the 737 pilots. One of them mentioned they saw fuel in the water so it's not sounding like fuel exhaustion. The 2nd link is part 2 where they interview the Flight Mech and Rescue Swimmer:

https://youtu.be/z7s-yxH2xHQ

https://youtu.be/nZJPRAkyIRw

TiredSoul 07-02-2021 02:05 PM

Fuel exhaustion doesn’t mean there’s zero fuel on board. There is still unusable fuel and it doesn’t take much for that fuel sheen on the water.
How deep is the water there? Curious if they’ll bother bringing up the engines.
Kudos to the Controller for keeping everything going. Keep in mind she’s talking to crews on different frequencies that are walking allover other transmissions.

captive apple 07-02-2021 02:40 PM

Yes she was task saturated due to min staffing. The point is will the FAA learn anything from this experience?

trip 07-02-2021 02:45 PM

They reported the remaining engine was running really hot and were unable to maintain altitude. Firewalled I'd imagine, not likely fuel starvation.

501D22G 07-02-2021 02:57 PM


Originally Posted by TiredSoul (Post 3258237)
Fuel exhaustion doesn’t mean there’s zero fuel on board. There is still unusable fuel and it doesn’t take much for that fuel sheen on the water.
How deep is the water there? Curious if they’ll bother bringing up the engines.
Kudos to the Controller for keeping everything going. Keep in mind she’s talking to crews on different frequencies that are walking allover other transmissions.

250 fathoms. Piece of cake.

But not really necessary, Rhoades kept those JT8Ds really well maintained.

rickair7777 07-02-2021 03:39 PM


Originally Posted by AirBear (Post 3258229)
Interview with the Coast Guard Helicopter Pilots who rescued the 737 pilots. One of them mentioned they saw fuel in the water so it's not sounding like fuel exhaustion.

They had just taken off. I seriously, seriously doubt they ran out of gas that quickly.

Hawaii808 07-02-2021 04:02 PM


Originally Posted by TiredSoul (Post 3258237)
Fuel exhaustion doesn’t mean there’s zero fuel on board. There is still unusable fuel and it doesn’t take much for that fuel sheen on the water.
How deep is the water there? Curious if they’ll bother bringing up the engines.
Kudos to the Controller for keeping everything going. Keep in mind she’s talking to crews on different frequencies that are walking allover other transmissions.


theres a difference between fuel exhaustion and fuel starvation. You are referring to fuel starvation, not exhaustion. Exhaustion literally means you have no more fuel.

those familiar with aviation in Hawaii are not surprised that something like this happened with this particular operator. Glad that the pilots made it out. Sounds like one is in pretty bad shape. Comms could have been better in the beginning, but the controller got in the flow after realizing what was going on. She is one of the better ones in HNL and you could tell she was about to breakdown at the end of the recording.

rickair7777 07-02-2021 04:12 PM


Originally Posted by 501D22G (Post 3258259)
250 fathoms. Piece of cake.

250 feet maybe. 250 fathoms is not exactly a piece of cake, would require ADS diving. So $$$. And hoisting a plane up from depth is not cheap in any case, need a specialized salvage ship, barge, and tug.

They could get the orange boxes at a more reasonable cost, maybe even with an advanced ROV.


Originally Posted by 501D22G (Post 3258259)
But not really necessary, Rhoades kept those JT8Ds really well maintained.

Documents that confirmed bad mx would be informative. But documents which "confirmed" good mx are not necessarily definitive.

rickair7777 07-02-2021 04:18 PM


Originally Posted by Duckdude (Post 3258202)
I’m going to stick up for the controller here. She was working Honolulu Approach, Departure, Tower, and Ground on more than one frequency. She was coordinating with the airport fire department and the coast guard. She wasn’t perfect, but I think she handled a very stressful situation quite well.

OK so she was set up a little bit. But hold all taxis and departures. Manage arrivals by holding if possible or long vectors.

And where was her backup? I know they don't do solo shifts, how long does it take to get somebody from the break room?

Hawaii808 07-02-2021 04:42 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3258290)
250 feet maybe. 250 fathoms is not exactly a piece of cake, would require ADS diving. So $$$. And hoisting a plane up from depth is not cheap in any case, need a specialized salvage ship, barge, and tug.

They could get the orange boxes at a more reasonable cost, maybe even with an advanced ROV.



Documents that confirmed bad mx would be informative. But documents which "confirmed" good mx are not necessarily definitive.


Rhoades is not known for good maintenance. Quite the opposite actually. They had a main wheel come off a few years back on takeoff for Christ sakes.

nightsky2 07-02-2021 04:57 PM

I’m seeing a lot of hits on ATC here. My personal observation and one of the odd things about HNL is how the middle of the night ATC can operate like there’s almost no traffic when in fact there is frequently more traffic than can reasonably be handled by a single controller. I can’t recall being in the pattern alone in the middle of the night. Every brand of long haul freighter is coming and going at all hours, and before Covid we were frequently mixed up with passenger arrivals. Now that is back. She is clearly very busy with just normal traffic. I hope they will reconsider nocturnal staffing.

gringo 07-02-2021 05:02 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3258291)
OK so she was set up a little bit. But hold all taxis and departures. Manage arrivals by holding if possible or long vectors.

And where was her backup? I know they don't do solo shifts, how long does it take to get somebody from the break room?

Naw, I’m with the controller on this one. I think she did a good job.

Engine failure? Ok, no big deal, happens frequently enough. No reason to stop everything.

I listened to the entire recording, I didn’t hear anyone declare a dual engine failure.

Lots of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. Glad everyone’s getting their exercise in.

Glad everyone made it out. Speedy recovery for the two pilots.

JamesNoBrakes 07-02-2021 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by captive apple (Post 3258250)
Yes she was task saturated due to min staffing. The point is will the FAA learn anything from this experience?

The cycle constantly repeats itself.

Bad accident, FAA finds they didn't have enough staff or oversight, they ask congress for (and get) more money to address it, beef up staffing, create more positions, etc.

Years later, when bean-counters come by, they figure since bad things haven't happened in a while that said positions and changes are no longer necessary, and it's back to square one.

It is the way of things.

TiredSoul 07-02-2021 05:32 PM

As far as only getting the “orange boxes”, this turd is from 1975.
Have the data recorders ever been updated or were they still the aluminum foil type?
Is there a requirement to update those things to newer technologies or is it one of those regs that starts with “certificated after 1979”?

501D22G 07-02-2021 07:24 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3258290)
250 feet maybe. 250 fathoms is not exactly a piece of cake, would require ADS diving. So $$$. And hoisting a plane up from depth is not cheap in any case, need a specialized salvage ship, barge, and tug.

They could get the orange boxes at a more reasonable cost, maybe even with an advanced ROV.



Documents that confirmed bad mx would be informative. But documents which "confirmed" good mx are not necessarily definitive.

My post was 100% sarcasm.

It could be in 15,000 ft of water, luckily it's not. Still gonna be a bear.

Also, I'm sure the airplane was a highly polished turd. The only people flying -200s should be 3rd-world s##tholes, and even they manage to put brand new metal in the dirt.

rickair7777 07-02-2021 07:37 PM


Originally Posted by gringo (Post 3258309)
Naw, I’m with the controller on this one. I think she did a good job.

Engine failure? Ok, no big deal, happens frequently enough. No reason to stop everything.

If she's too busy to let the emergency aircraft finish it's radio xmits, then that's a reason to stop something.

rickair7777 07-02-2021 07:39 PM


Originally Posted by TiredSoul (Post 3258321)
As far as only getting the “orange boxes”, this turd is from 1975.
Have the data recorders ever been updated or were they still the aluminum foil type?
Is there a requirement to update those things to newer technologies or is it one of those regs that starts with “certificated after 1979”?

Whether they bother to try to recover anything might depend on what they can conclude after talking to the crew.

AirBear 07-02-2021 07:45 PM

After listening to the interviews with the CG crew it was a really close call for 1 of the pilots. He was hanging onto the 737's tail when the jet suddenly submerged. The pilot starting drowning, the rescue swimmer got to him just in time. One of the pilots (I suspect it was this one) is in critical condition in ICU, the other is in serious condition. It sounds like the jet broke up on impact. The 2nd pilot was clinging to a cargo container and by the time the swimmer got to him a Fire Rescue boat had arrived so he took the pilot over to it since they had a backboard and more people to help him.

The Rescue Swimmer was impressive. Said he'd been in the Coast Guard for 18.5 years so figure mid to upper 30's and there didn't appear to be an ounce of fat on him. Those folks have to stay in tip top shape.

ugleeual 07-02-2021 08:49 PM

Mayday Mayday Mayday… if you listen to the controller she didn’t hear the “engine failure” call until the aircraft was flying SSW… when she finally was clued they were an emergency aircraft she gave him immediate clearance to runway 4. The controller did a solid job… I’m guessing the pilots wished they had not extended the downwind to run checklists… with the good engine smoking. In the end the pilots were pretty cool headed… glad everyone made it out ok.

ATCBob 07-02-2021 09:21 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3258291)
OK so she was set up a little bit. But hold all taxis and departures. Manage arrivals by holding if possible or long vectors.

And where was her backup? I know they don't do solo shifts, how long does it take to get somebody from the break room?

20 seconds maybe? No doubt the other person would have taken over coordination. There's a long checklist of people and facilities to notify and he certainly would have been going through that. The controller here didn't sound overwhelmed and said "we" at one point so I'm pretty sure that's what was happening.

Kolohe 07-02-2021 09:43 PM

Fortuitous
 
If you have to ditch, doing so 2.5 miles from the 24/7 alert Coast Guard MH-65C that will pick you up is a decent choice.


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