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Air France Flight Control Failure on Landiing

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Air France Flight Control Failure on Landiing

Old 05-11-2022, 05:06 PM
  #11  
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There's nothing cryptic about it.

The times when a flight crew member must assume control from another are rare. Occasionally a check airman/instructor or perhaps the captain might provide momentary assistance, but still rare.

A flight crew member who makes a challenge and expects a response, will give a second challenge, if the initial response is received. Protocol in general is that if a second failure to respond occurs, the pilot not flying will assume incapacitation and take control. I have done that twice in my career, in both cases when the other pilot had checked out; he was still at the controls, but nobody home.

During a rejected takeoff, most operators will have the captain reject the takeoff; if the first officer is conducting the takeoff, the captain will announce that he has the controls, and will reject the takeoff.

The case of a pilot who fights another pilot on the controls might fall into one of two camps; a case in which neither pilot is aware the other is opposing on the controls, or one in which both pilots are struggling for control. The latter former would be very rare, the latter extremely rare.

The Atlas 767 that crashed in a dive at Trinity Bay, near Houston, was an example of the crew struggling for control of the aircraft. The First Officer entered a steep dive in response to a misinterpretation of what the aircraft was doing, and the captain struggled to pull up and stop the dive. The struggle was intense enough that the "lost motion" function of the flight controls allowed them to be split, but did not allow the captain to take control. This function is found on various aircraft and is designed to allow controls to break free, when one control is jammed, and in most cases, give priority to the left seat. They cause a physical separation of the flight controls. Again, such events are extremely rare.

If a crew were to be struggling for control, while the captain is the pilot in command and has ultimate authority in the aircraft and it's operation, whatever caused the struggle will likely prevent following the chain of command or deferral to authority.

I can give several personal examples; arriving at JFK at the end of a long trip, we were placed in holding. The I was first officer, and the captain had burned extra fuel by flying at a different speed than originally planned. We were told to expect 45 minutes in holding. We did not have 45 minutes without being burning into reserves, and with low weather and traffic piling up, waiting until we were in our reserve fuel was not a good idea. I discussed the fuel with the captain on the descent, and he said he intended to hold until cleared. I disagreed. When I accepted the hold, I advised the controller that we could take two turns in the hold and we'd need to divert. The captain was annoyed, but on the second turn they cleared us for the approach. Failure of a first officer to be assertive has led to mishaps in the past. While I did not take control, I did speak up. Likewise, an aircraft approaching to land might encounter a circumstance in which the approach should not be continued; a pilot intent on continuing might be unsafe; the other pilot has an obligation to call for the go-around/missed approach, and if the approach is unstable or not on the proper glide path or course, to see that its either corrected, or the go-around performed. The other pilot might announce the go-around to ATC, in essence forcing the hand of the pilot flying.

Struggling for control is a dangerous thing to do. I was in the right seat of a Learjet 35 at LAX, with a new, questionable pilot in the left seat. We were directed to cross runway 25L to a taxiway beyond, but the left seat pilot stopped on the runway and froze up. He began saying he didn't know where he was. He had little experience at busy airports, and was nervous about dealing with ATC, or taxiing on a large airfield. The controller saw what was going on and asked if we could depart from the present position. It wasn't a problem, and I said yes. The controller cleared us to go. We turned left, lined up with checklists complete and began the roll. Approaching 80 knots, I got a door light, indicating an unsafe entry door. I announced it, but there was no response. I knew that the most common cause for that light was a small microswitch on the door, below the handle, typically caused by the tip of the handle catching on carpeting on the door step. I glanced back at the door, visible from the cockpit, noted the handle forward, which guaranted the door was closed. I could either attempt to take control from the pilot flying or continue; a high-speed reject is one of the most dangerous things one can do in a turbojet aircraft; fighting for control on takeoff puts it over the top. It was safer to go. The pilot rotated when I called it, but didn't respond to my "positive rate" call, or the flap calls. I raised the gear and flaps after ensuring he was climbing and then accelerating. Once we were cleaned up, I pointed to the light, and repeated the observation. The pilot flying had a meltdown, tried jerking the power to idle and made a hard bank. I took control. He began shouting that we had to turn around and land the opposite direction. I informed him it was too late. Once up and clear and at a safe altitude, I would check the door handle, which I did; it was the tip caught on carpeting. That was a case in which the other pilot was assigned as the PIC, but was widely considered incapable. It was safer when he didn't respond, to continue, given all the information at hand. Deferring to him because he was the designated captain for the trip, was not the reason, and I did take control when it was safe, and necessary.

During an approach to land, again considering that taking control may be a matter of announcing "I have the controls," or it may be a matter of physically wresting them from the pilot flying; one must consider the totality of what is happening; what is the safest course of action? What is actually happening?

If a pilot makes a corrective action and doesn't announce it, the other pilot may not know, and may respond with opposing control force. This lack of communication can lead to pilots inadvertently opposing one another on the controls. As an experiment one afternoon, on a long descent in a turboprop, I placed my hand on my leg and applied gentle pressure to the control yoke. A friend, flying, countered it with pressure on his control yoke. I gradually increased my leg pressure until he was opposing with some effort, and trim. He didn't say anything. He went quite some time before he decided to verbalize it, and as he was talking, I let go, and the airplane rolled. The look on his face was with the price of a cup of cola, and after a few well chosen words, we had a laugh. It was interesting to see how far he went, not saying a word, until he could hardly keep up with the pressure. This was one pilot opposing another, and a case of not speaking out when one should. It was also controlled; two pilots who don't know each other are opposing on the controls, close to the ground, slow, with gear and flaps out, is dangerous. Baseball players are trained to call the ball ("I got it!"), and pilots are expected to verbalize and communicate. Failure to do so has led to some significant fatalities and well known cases.

What happens if someone tries to take control and the other pilot refuses to relinquish control? As noted above, they may have the rest of their life to figure it out, however many minutes and second that may be. Such a case is a very dire circumstance, and assuming everyone survives, if it doesn't result in someone losing their job, it should. The times when one must attempt to take control and is resisted, are extremely rare, and might be intentional, someone who has frozen up (a student pilot, for example), or a case of incapacitation (pilot has collapsed against the controls). While extremely rare, the successful outcome depends on a very rapid resolution. If someone experiences this once or twice in their career, it's one or two times too many.
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Old 05-11-2022, 05:25 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
There's nothing cryptic about it.

The times when a flight crew member must assume control from another are rare. Occasionally a check airman/instructor or perhaps the captain might provide momentary assistance, but still rare.

A flight crew member who makes a challenge and expects a response, will give a second challenge, if the initial response is received. Protocol in general is that if a second failure to respond occurs, the pilot not flying will assume incapacitation and take control. I have done that twice in my career, in both cases when the other pilot had checked out; he was still at the controls, but nobody home.

During a rejected takeoff, most operators will have the captain reject the takeoff; if the first officer is conducting the takeoff, the captain will announce that he has the controls, and will reject the takeoff.

The case of a pilot who fights another pilot on the controls might fall into one of two camps; a case in which neither pilot is aware the other is opposing on the controls, or one in which both pilots are struggling for control. The latter former would be very rare, the latter extremely rare.

The Atlas 767 that crashed in a dive at Trinity Bay, near Houston, was an example of the crew struggling for control of the aircraft. The First Officer entered a steep dive in response to a misinterpretation of what the aircraft was doing, and the captain struggled to pull up and stop the dive. The struggle was intense enough that the "lost motion" function of the flight controls allowed them to be split, but did not allow the captain to take control. This function is found on various aircraft and is designed to allow controls to break free, when one control is jammed, and in most cases, give priority to the left seat. They cause a physical separation of the flight controls. Again, such events are extremely rare.

If a crew were to be struggling for control, while the captain is the pilot in command and has ultimate authority in the aircraft and it's operation, whatever caused the struggle will likely prevent following the chain of command or deferral to authority.

I can give several personal examples; arriving at JFK at the end of a long trip, we were placed in holding. The I was first officer, and the captain had burned extra fuel by flying at a different speed than originally planned. We were told to expect 45 minutes in holding. We did not have 45 minutes without being burning into reserves, and with low weather and traffic piling up, waiting until we were in our reserve fuel was not a good idea. I discussed the fuel with the captain on the descent, and he said he intended to hold until cleared. I disagreed. When I accepted the hold, I advised the controller that we could take two turns in the hold and we'd need to divert. The captain was annoyed, but on the second turn they cleared us for the approach. Failure of a first officer to be assertive has led to mishaps in the past. While I did not take control, I did speak up. Likewise, an aircraft approaching to land might encounter a circumstance in which the approach should not be continued; a pilot intent on continuing might be unsafe; the other pilot has an obligation to call for the go-around/missed approach, and if the approach is unstable or not on the proper glide path or course, to see that its either corrected, or the go-around performed. The other pilot might announce the go-around to ATC, in essence forcing the hand of the pilot flying.

Struggling for control is a dangerous thing to do. I was in the right seat of a Learjet 35 at LAX, with a new, questionable pilot in the left seat. We were directed to cross runway 25L to a taxiway beyond, but the left seat pilot stopped on the runway and froze up. He began saying he didn't know where he was. He had little experience at busy airports, and was nervous about dealing with ATC, or taxiing on a large airfield. The controller saw what was going on and asked if we could depart from the present position. It wasn't a problem, and I said yes. The controller cleared us to go. We turned left, lined up with checklists complete and began the roll. Approaching 80 knots, I got a door light, indicating an unsafe entry door. I announced it, but there was no response. I knew that the most common cause for that light was a small microswitch on the door, below the handle, typically caused by the tip of the handle catching on carpeting on the door step. I glanced back at the door, visible from the cockpit, noted the handle forward, which guaranted the door was closed. I could either attempt to take control from the pilot flying or continue; a high-speed reject is one of the most dangerous things one can do in a turbojet aircraft; fighting for control on takeoff puts it over the top. It was safer to go. The pilot rotated when I called it, but didn't respond to my "positive rate" call, or the flap calls. I raised the gear and flaps after ensuring he was climbing and then accelerating. Once we were cleaned up, I pointed to the light, and repeated the observation. The pilot flying had a meltdown, tried jerking the power to idle and made a hard bank. I took control. He began shouting that we had to turn around and land the opposite direction. I informed him it was too late. Once up and clear and at a safe altitude, I would check the door handle, which I did; it was the tip caught on carpeting. That was a case in which the other pilot was assigned as the PIC, but was widely considered incapable. It was safer when he didn't respond, to continue, given all the information at hand. Deferring to him because he was the designated captain for the trip, was not the reason, and I did take control when it was safe, and necessary.

During an approach to land, again considering that taking control may be a matter of announcing "I have the controls," or it may be a matter of physically wresting them from the pilot flying; one must consider the totality of what is happening; what is the safest course of action? What is actually happening?

If a pilot makes a corrective action and doesn't announce it, the other pilot may not know, and may respond with opposing control force. This lack of communication can lead to pilots inadvertently opposing one another on the controls. As an experiment one afternoon, on a long descent in a turboprop, I placed my hand on my leg and applied gentle pressure to the control yoke. A friend, flying, countered it with pressure on his control yoke. I gradually increased my leg pressure until he was opposing with some effort, and trim. He didn't say anything. He went quite some time before he decided to verbalize it, and as he was talking, I let go, and the airplane rolled. The look on his face was with the price of a cup of cola, and after a few well chosen words, we had a laugh. It was interesting to see how far he went, not saying a word, until he could hardly keep up with the pressure. This was one pilot opposing another, and a case of not speaking out when one should. It was also controlled; two pilots who don't know each other are opposing on the controls, close to the ground, slow, with gear and flaps out, is dangerous. Baseball players are trained to call the ball ("I got it!"), and pilots are expected to verbalize and communicate. Failure to do so has led to some significant fatalities and well known cases.

What happens if someone tries to take control and the other pilot refuses to relinquish control? As noted above, they may have the rest of their life to figure it out, however many minutes and second that may be. Such a case is a very dire circumstance, and assuming everyone survives, if it doesn't result in someone losing their job, it should. The times when one must attempt to take control and is resisted, are extremely rare, and might be intentional, someone who has frozen up (a student pilot, for example), or a case of incapacitation (pilot has collapsed against the controls). While extremely rare, the successful outcome depends on a very rapid resolution. If someone experiences this once or twice in their career, it's one or two times too many.
Thanks JohnBurke for this thorough response!! Very helpful. When I said to Rick that he must enjoy being cryptic, what I meant was that it seemed like he was saying that I had the rest of MY life to figure out the answer, to which I scratched my head and said to myself, "okayyy? I guess I'll make my best guess". Thanks again!
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Old 05-11-2022, 09:49 PM
  #13  
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No an Airbus driver myself, I was under the impression they have an override switch or priority switch of both pilots input on the side stick?
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Old 05-12-2022, 03:39 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by TiredSoul View Post
No an Airbus driver myself, I was under the impression they have an override switch or priority switch of both pilots input on the side stick?
Yes, there is a button on the sidestick to gain priority over the other side.

The aircraft makes it very clear when both pilots are making control inputs.
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Old 05-13-2022, 04:07 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by jaxsurf View Post
Yes, there is a button on the sidestick to gain priority over the other side.

The aircraft makes it very clear when both pilots are making control inputs.

Yes but that's designed mainly to over-ride a failed control stick which is providing bad inputs to the plane, or possibly an incap pilot who is holding or leaning on the stick. If pilots keep pressing the override button, it will just keep going back and forth.

So doesn't solve the problem if the other guy is deliberately fighting you, although the CA stick will ultimately over-ride the FO stick. The airplane obviously doesn't know which pilot is right, but will default to the CA.
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