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-   -   You can't fix stupid... (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/144834-you-cant-fix-stupid.html)

EasternATC 10-09-2023 06:32 AM

You can't fix stupid...
 
I understand everyone is OK. The airplane landed further along in the field; the propstrike caused severe vibration.

Stearman hits combine.

JohnBurke 10-09-2023 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasternATC (Post 3708305)
I understand everyone is OK. The airplane landed further along in the field; the propstrike caused severe vibration.

Stearman hits combine.

Can't fix stupid, huh? Have you ever sprayed a cotton field?

Which is the stupid part? Simulating a spray run, flying in formation, or actually hitting the harvester?

Ever sprayed fields in formation?

Stan446 10-09-2023 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3708316)
Can't fix stupid, huh? Have you ever sprayed a cotton field?

Which is the stupid part? Simulating a spray run, flying in formation, or actually hitting the harvester?

Ever sprayed fields in formation?

Yes, yes and yes.

EasternATC 10-09-2023 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3708316)
Can't fix stupid, huh? Have you ever sprayed a cotton field?

Which is the stupid part? Simulating a spray run, flying in formation, or actually hitting the harvester?

Ever sprayed fields in formation?

Did you have a point?

JohnBurke 10-09-2023 08:12 PM

I do have a point, and you've missed it.

Given your initial assessment of the event which showed gross ignorance on multiple counts, I don't think explaining it would help you. It would go right over your head.

METO Guido 10-10-2023 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan446 (Post 3708442)
Yes, yes and yes.

All no’s here. Remarkable prewar airframe/ eng combo, still on the job. Hard to tell from the camera angle what if anything they saw coming.

JohnBurke 10-11-2023 06:25 AM

They're obviously not spraying the field: the lead has smoke on; neither aircraft is currently a spray airplane. However, they're dong a low pass, a little high were it a spray run, on a cotton field. Stearman, N3N's, and other similar aircraft were commonly used for spraying. The video doesn't make clear the purpose of the run, whether is practice, training, demonstration, or what the case may be, and I won't speculate or conclude the wisdom of the act based on unknown information. Flying low isn't unwise, nor is formation nor is low altitude formation, nor is low altitude formation flight near obstacles. I've done that myself for many years, starting nearly four decades ago, as a teenager.

Flight in a field, be it cotton, corn, wheat, or any other crop, will always be near obstacles, whether it be farm equipment, standpipes, irrigation, powerlines, etc. One doesn't climb to 1,000' because the object is there; one climbs high enough to clear the object then returns to the spray altitude. The two aircraft in the video were already at an altitude to which one would normally climb to clear an obstacle; one doesn't climb much higher than that. Whether these aircraft or pilots were part of a spray operation or had spray experience or not is unknown: the point is that this is a regular activity and maneuver, flown hundreds of thousands of times and hours, every year. It's neither stupid, nor reckless. It's routine.

If one has no experience performing low altitude flight, one should seek training, and one should gain experience in an immersive environment. There's a lot to hit, down there. Working close to objects is part of low altitude flight operations. Objects do sometimes get hit. Errors do occur. I've certainly come back with corn in my landing gear, or sagebrush in the wingtip of my C130. It happens; shouldn't, but it does, and in spray work, yes, it's sometimes safer to fly under the powerlines (nothing like reaching the end of a field, rotating, and the airplane doesn't climb).

For a significant discussion about the video, more information is required.

METO Guido 10-11-2023 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3709171)
For a significant discussion about the video, more information is required.

Here’s an unofficial initial report. Owned by a Cleveland MS repair station specializing in Stearman restorations, air tractor service, ag mods etc. 2 aboard when the left gear strut separates on a stationary cotton picker about 15 mins after takeoff an hour or so before sunset. Seems they landed without much further damage. No mention of the incident flight plan, purpose.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/346258

EasternATC 10-11-2023 04:34 PM

Here is another video of the incident, and the Reddit comments if one is so inclined.

JohnBurke 10-11-2023 06:01 PM

Comments are useless; gross ignorance posted, little more. The video from the harvester shows the sun directly behind the approaching aircraft; that impacts depth perception on objects, as well as puts reflected light directly back at the approaching aircraft (windows, etc).

Notable is the pushover by trees at the start of the run. A pilot who doesn't have that experience tends to not shove the nose down over the trees, to get into the field early. An experienced ag pilot would push the nose down to get to the surface closer to the obstacles, which starts the run sooner in the field. Both aircraft push the same, maintain their relative position, and both aircraft arrive at their swath altitude the same, and stay at that level. Inexperienced pilots tend to bob back up; both pilots flying the run appear to have some experience doing that kind of flying.

I've been next to, in front of, an behind very experienced pilots (decades of experience doing just that kind of flying) who hit obstacles. Wires, standpipes, etc. I was behind a pilot who flew into several wires at once; he first because aware of them when the sparks started flying. He'd sprayed that field for over 30 years.

The military used to call unauthorized low altitude flying "flathatting," and pilots who have no experience in the low altitude environment are pushing their luck. It's very different if it's your world and that's where you live. When I was younger, it made me nervous to fly higher than 500.'

Again, there's presently no information about the flight, pilots, or the operation. Training, photography, or just someone doing something familiar. There was a time when I'd go do swatch runs and turns for proficiency. Just as someone might go do stalls and steep turns if they'd been away for a little while, and landings, the most familiar thing to me was low passes and steep turns at the end of each pass. If it's an environment with which one has no experience, the comments on the reddit link are typical, as is the title of this thread. If all someone does is high altitude flight and instrument approaches, the concept of a life lived at 6-15' is alien and unthinkable. For some, that's the entire career.

One of those most common mistakes made by new ag pilots is striking the wheels on the ground or putting them in the crop. In wheat, it leaves a visible tell tale sign. In corn, it can wrap the gear and suck the airplane into the crop. Too close to an object has penalties, too; close is a judgement call each time. If actually spraying a field, one doesn't normally go around an obstacle, but over it: the point of the pass is to make a straight line.

Formation in a field adds an element that divides attention. one must maintain one's position precisely with the other airplane, while maintaining height, and ground track, and look for obstacles. Up-trim is generally held with forward pressure on the stick, such that any distraction or relaxation results in a climb, for safety. Never the less, working around obstacles, from power lines to tractors to trees, etc, typically means working very close to the obstacle such that doing so it's an unusual act; it's a familiar one.

If one isn't spraying a field, then generally one shouldn't be there. A number of reasons may exist why one would be there, however, and until more information is forthcoming, it's impossible to make specific observations other than elements of the video itself. One airplane did hit a harvester. The sun was at their backs. I was a cotton field. Both pilots displayed aircraft operation and maneuvering that suggests experience, but beyond that, much more would simply be speculation.


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