OperatorError

I appreciate the condolences on the tragedy last week. On the issue of the upset recovery course...I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it's a little wrong. The course was originally designed to provide CFI students the required (by regulation) spin training as the Cirrus is not approved for spins. It had great intent but in actuality, the Extra 200 was very hard for anyone over 210lbs to fit in, and the course added unneeded cost to the overall training. Although the 172 cannot do hammer heads, it serves the purpose of spin training just fine.

TwoStar

OperatorError. I bet you two lollipops that you are 100% wrong. The URT course was strictly designed to prevent exactly what happened to our friends. The CFI spin endorsement remained unchanged throughout the time the URT course was offered. URT was designed by Richard Morris in 2005-06 as a five lesson program and offered to post private pilots specifically those that would be learning to fly in CIrrus. When Richard Morris left the academy so did his wisdom and leadership. We're now run by a CFO with no aviation expertise whatsoever (much less enthusiasm and customer service) and two friends have perished due to his decisions.

As for the 172. I just don't believe its the safest platform a school with the recourses being owned by Delta Airlines should choose. Although a sturdy aircraft, the lowest time C172 at DCA is what, 15000 hours, maybe? And our most experience instructor is an expert in teaching spins because they've done how many, or been through what level of advanced training? Its not just teaching a perfect example of a spin over a single hour. What about (in time) when a student makes a mistake and accidentally pushes that spin a little too far with a sloppy recovery? What is the instructor going to do when a 15000 hour airframe is innocently pushed a little too far? No matter how well its done there are unique loads placed on an airframe during spin and recovery that will take their toll on monocoque airframes over time. Being "spin approved" in no way should be interpreted as "this aircraft was designed for the rigors of spin training at an academy that flies x-hundred hours a day". Cirrus was designed to take individuals from point A to B with modern style, amenities, and speed. In the training academy environment the nose gear breaks away from the mount on the firewall much less a few dozen other interesting anomalies.

The point I labor to make is that Delta Airlines / DCA have not done everything they can do to give students and clients all the tools possible to be the best and safest we can be. Taking away URT was a move at being cheap. How can anyone argue removing a training resource that could potentially save lives was a good move? Especially when we are paying nearly $80-100k for training. Both our biggest competitors offer full URT, spin, and aerobatic courses as a standard part of training. Embry-Riddle uses a PItts, some times a Decathlon and I hear they may be using the same company we use to use with the Extra 300. Flight Safety is offering numerous URT courses all in the Extra 300.

Accidents will continue to happen, but taking away training recourses is not a road to prevention. I was highly urged by my peers at the majors to take URT which I had to fight to get from DCA. In hindsight I now understand why they wanted me to take the course and what they wanted me to experience and learn.

The Cirrus cannot (without aid of a chute) recover from developed spin. Its the only single engine GA aircraft ever certified under FAR that cannot. Hence DCA's move to URT training. It was to prevent spin, teach the intricacies and telltale signs of pending stall and upset on a faster more modern wing than used in the past. Again, to prevent the possibility of spin. To teach you the symptoms of when you have gone too far.

As we learned when earning our CFI endorsements the vast majority (thats more than +50%) of airplane accidents occur in day, VFR conditions while maneuvering (i.e., "loss of control"). You will recall that none of these accident statistics are attributed to weather, pilot incapacitation, or aircraft malfunction.

Every modicum of experience we gain as students and pilots only helps to make us safer, smarter pilots. Our good friends perished in a potentially spiraling vertical decent in ideal day VFR conditions with possibly very late or no manual chute deployment. No aircraft anomalies have been noted by NTSB as yet. Control continuity was found to be correct.

It approaches the criminal to have taken away a resource that could have given them the small edge to fight back when they needed it most. And to think we at DCA will do it again with our current program? I shudder at the thought.

DublinFlyer

Damn good post sir. I couldn't have said anything else any better!

I agree with everything. When I was at DCA, we still flew the Cessna's, Arrows and Seminoles. Although we had just received our first Cirrus, I never got to fly it. I went through the old program of Private and Instrument being separate, although I did do the new CAMEL course.

I thought the Cirrus was a good move - although I was a little hesitant on putting brand new private pilots in those things. I always thought they should get rid of the 152s, use the 172s for Private training, and then move to the Cirrus for everything else.

I personally, am glad I did my instrument training in a 172 with old steam gauges. While a glass cockpit is nice (and I love mine in the CRJ now), I think it was important to learn instrument the old fashioned way, and not just know how to go "Direct-to."

As far as the URT goes, I think it was a good idea. I was kind of irritated it was more money, but my philosophy was if I'm spending this kind of money already, whats a couple of more grand? Paul, while an interesting character, was a good instructor in the Extra. I always thought he was a butthole when I first met him, but my instructor was good friends with him, and we went out a couple of times. After I got to know him a bit better, my thoughts changed and I felt he was a great addition to the academy and I enjoyed his company, and his advice he had regarding my flying and training.

I didn't know DCA had removed the URT from their training syllabus. I thought it was going to be mandatory for all students now that they had the Cirrus. And actually, even if they didn't use the Cirrus, I still think it should be mandatory. It's good training. I also think they may pay the price again if they don't start utilizing that program again. I've never flown a Cirrus, and I don't know how the thing stalls... so I ask - if you do a really crappy stall, and a crappy recovery, is there a possibility that the aircraft could enter a spin? Or is it a fairly stable aircraft?

This accident was a matter of when, not if. It was bound to happen I thought. Whether it was from a faulty 152 they had, weather, wind, or something, I expected it to happen at some point. I had always hoped it would not happen and have entailed a loss of control. It's very sad - and I hope it does not happen again.

I was very lucky to have the two BEST intstructors at DCA during my time. If it weren't for them - I would not have been half as good of a pilot as I am now, and I most definitely would not have been in my current job. They are the reason I am successful today - and they both know it.

Agrav8tdspin

First let me say, I was very sad to hear of the accident that took the lives of the instructor and student recently at DCA, it was a horrible accident, and well, that is all there is to say.

Second, I am glad I was an interesting person, and I must say, "butthole" is probably one of the nicer things I have been called by students... I am glad that you had a chance to get to know me, and give my sunny personality a second look.

On a serious note though, There was a lot of "politics" in the decision to remove the upset recovery program from DCA, and of course the final call came down saving $$$. There where other reasons given as well, such as, reduce the cost to students, Aircraft Selection, etc. but it always boils down to money. It is very sad that something that was meant to help all pilots be safer, smarter, and more prepared to handle the very dynamic flight environment was taken away because so very few did not see it as a valuable investment.

The course was never just for spins, as the very informed previous poster told us, it was, written into the program when the Cirrus came on board. It was written to help pilots be safer, by teaching them unusual attitudes, and upset recoveries in a very safe platform. Spins were a part of the course, and the end goal was to have the students earn their CFI spin endorsement, but that never panned out with the FAA. The great part of the spin training was that a student would see all types of spins, aggrevated, accelerated, and all kinds of entries, even full cross controlled stalls to a spin. The training was invaluable, and was far better than anything that could be taught in a C172...I know I did my initial spin training in a C172, and it was no were near what we were teaching in the Extra...

"Corporate culture has a very real influence on the attitudes and performance of the people within an organization there is no question in my mind that management decisions and actions, or more frequently, indecision's and inaction's, cause accidents."

— John Lauber, NTSB

TwoStar

Ahhh ... Agrav8tdspin. So nice to hear from you. I love the quote and fully feel responsibility of this accident lies greatly in the inaction or academy management. In their inability to commit to something essential for what reasons? I can't believe it was solely a money issue unless you speak of the fact the school was too cheap to buy or lease an aircraft that properly worked for the program.

Upset recovery training was not a luxury or recreational tool. Delta Connection Academy upset program development was tied directly to the unique flight characteristics of Cirrus aircraft and us low time pilots who would be flying them. To prevent what has happened. Management acts and the students and instructors always pay the price.

Students and instructors are sheep. We trust the decisions made by management under their big shiny Delta Airlines logo as being in our best interest when it actually it is just not the case. Management acts in managements interest here at DCA.

Agrav8tdspin, to this day I can't thank you enough for fighting for me to be able to take upset recovery before the program was "abolished". I'm so grateful for what you taught me and what I learned. How you did nothing to scare me and everything to coax me beyond my fears to learn more. You have shared more knowledge and saved more lives than you will ever know. More than most pilots here would care to admit. Thank you.

What are you up to these days? Are you flying?

DublinFlyer

Agrav8.... I bet Buchess would agree with the two of us.



And seriously - I never flew with you in the Extra, I was debating it due to the money issue. After I was hired by my airline, I waited about 2 months for sims, and I was talking to a Delta captain about this and he suggested I go ahead and do it. I found a program up in Atlanta and did a full 3 day course on it. It was some of the best money I ever spent, and I was always sorry I never did it with you PM. I probably would have learned more (and had more fun too). In the end - I think DCA was a great investment, albeit a very expensive investment. While I was hired with less experience than most of the other pilots at my company, I feel the quality of the training I had was unbeatable, and I would NOT have been so successful if it weren't for Buchess and my other instructor - Mister Doctor Baker. I think between what those guys taught me, and the motivation from the other pilots in this industry who cheered for me on the sidelines I have remained a very open minded and inquisitive F/O, and that's probably the reason I am always seeking to better myself as a pilot. Education doesn't just stop when you land in a jet.

I'm sorry to hear about DCA's shortcomings and some of their poor decisions. I was never a fan of their management, and I just tried to stay out of their crap and press on with my own training. I hope they are still providing quality training, and are thinking less about money and more about what they are teaching those students. I was always very concerned about the Cirrus, just in terms of what it will teach (or will not teach) the students learning in that airplane. I feel I learned more in a Cessna than I would have in that thing. I have all the time in the world now to play around in a glass cockpit and play easy pilot - but when the **** hits the fan, I still remember what I learned from those two instructors in those beat up old Cessnas.

I think DCA was always about money - but fortunately there were some people, like you Agrav8, that cared more about the students than you did the money and politics - and I will be forever grateful of that. Not a day goes by when I go to work and climb in my seat I'm not thankful for the guys like you, BB, MB and some of the check pilots that were so kind and helpful. I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for you guys.

Thanks.

TPROP4ever

Paul, are you the gentleman I met on the SE ramp at KSFB about a year ago. If so I want to get back in touch with you about your spin training course you explained to me. If you are who I think you are, we have a mutual friend in a CFI with the initials P.R. let me know, thanks