Nortonious

You saying the jet could have been recovered?

I'm going with BDGERMN & Wuzzo on this one. Sometimes an engine can hiccup at the worst possible time. My guess is Boozer was doing it by the book and a little bad luck hit his right engine.

BDGERJMN

Norton,

You may have misunderstood me. The high alpha pass is very recoverable from an engine failure. It's a function of altitude and alpha control when it happens. If you lose a motor at 25 alpha and you're at 500'AGL it IS recoverable and IS a well practiced EP, normally with 400-450' of altitude loss. I have done it countless times in the simulator practicing for DEMOs. The CF-18 demo does it's HAP at an alpha higher than 25 and from the video, lower than 500' so...without a doubt Boozer had no choice. By the book doesn't always mean the book is right, it just means the book was written accepting a certain amount of risk for a given flight regime.

Nortonious

Nope, understood you perfectly and agree with your analysis. To clarify my thoughts: WHen I say "by the book" I'm giving Boozer the benefit of the doubt that he was flying the CF-18 Hi-Alpha pass on the chosen parameters when he had what appears to be an engine issue. My real question is did those parameters fall outside of the regime for a safe recovery with an engine failure and it was simply an accepted risk (knowing that the jet would not be over the crowd and the MB is a good seat as mentioned). Your words above kinda answer that question...I'll trust your MkI eyeball on the AOA/Altitude. I haven't chatted with any of my Cold Lake bros recently to get a definitive answer, so if you or anybody else hears first I'd love to know.

I seem to remember the T-Birds F-16 Hi-Alpha pass being substantially lower 20 years ago. Guess somebody got nervous about maybe not even having enough time to get the seat up the rails with an engine hiccup.

ps Question: For the 500 AGL, 25 Alpha loss of engine event you described losing 400-450 feet in the recovery...yikes. Outta curiosity and if you recall, what kind of assumptions (i.e. instantaneous loss of thrust, 3 sec decay, any density altitude considerations, etc)??

USMCFLYR

BD answered the question you asked me. My statement was that if flown within the parameters of the USN demo - it is recoverable. As he has - I've done it many times in the sim (though I was never a demo guy and it has been awhile) and I don't remember the altitude loss being that much, but I have an e-mail in to one of the West Coast Demo guys to ask what the current numbers are that they practice and train too and expected recovery; I'll ask him about the conditions too and see if I can get that answered for you.

I don't know how the Canadians fly their demo so I have no input other than seeing the video (finally) and the photos from the press as to what the cause and parameters might have been. I also didn't mean to say that the pilot had made any mistake during the performance if that is what you think I alluded too; but I also know that WE didn't have a manuever in the demo that didn't have a chance to be recovered from if an engine failed at the most inopportune time.

USMCFLYR

BDGERJMN

The scenario we typically practiced was a complete engine seizure. It was a sim so the RPM went to zero nearly instantaneously. The key to recovery is obviously reducing AOA(targeting just under 15alpha for the recovery, anything more would increase rate of descent, anything less would do the same), and countering the yaw with rudder. The hornet's rudders are very effective at 25 alpha to control rolloff but immediately going to blower on the other motor with alpha above 15 will produce too much yaw to counter. It's a tough chore either way. I'm sure the West coast guys practiced higher density altitudes in their sims, on the East coast we typically never flew a demo above 1000'MSL field elevation. Hope this helps. I'm sure Gump will get a better answer from the current guys. It's been 3 yrs since I last flew the demo, but I dont think the procedures have changed.

UPTme

“Capt. Bews, like any of our F-18 pilots, is highly trained, highly skilled and highly capable,” Brown said. “It’s a long journey to become an F-18 pilot, and our demo pilots are exceptionally proven. It’s an honour to be selected as a demo pilot."


Doubt it'd look the same if it was a USAF PA release. No, I'm not talking about the 'u' in honor.

Nortonious

USMCFLYR & BDGERMN, thanks for the response(s). Sounds like we're all basically on the same page with our armchair analysis. Guess we'll just wait and see what the investigation has to say about it all.

Grumble

Not a demo guy, word around the campfire here is they do the HAP > 25 Alpha. Throw in all the variables of wind, density altitude, etc and BDGER's experience. Sounds like it was just bad luck. Engine failed at the most inopportune time, during a demanding phase of the demo.

Glad he got out ok. Hope they let him keep the seat. Between that and the sequence of photos framed up, would make a killer addition to the "I love me" room.