Asiana 777 Crash at SFO
#311
Boeing and KAL believed it caused accidents, and look how KAL turned it around. When I lived in NW CO, by neighbor was a Boeing sim instructor. He worked mostly with KAL and Asiana and spent most of his time in Korea, in 2-3 month blocks (he was a former USAF, and Saudia before Boeing). He had some interesting stories about Capts that wouldn't think twice about reaching across the cockpit to backhand an FO. He worked specifically on CRM issues, and while he said it was often a tough row to hoe, they were making progress (this was 2002). He said that it was really tough to get FOs to assert themselves, but then once they got them speaking, they couldn't shut them up!
#312
I think the definition of "on station" is what might be in question here. The individuals ejected from the aircraft and observed by the UAL crew were thousands of feet from the wreckage. Is it not possible that they were without aid for much longer than those egressing the aircraft at the location it finally came to rest?
#313
I think the definition of "on station" is what might be in question here. The individuals ejected from the aircraft and observed by the UAL crew were thousands of feet from the wreckage. Is it not possible that they were without aid for much longer than those egressing the aircraft at the location it finally came to rest?
#314
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 480
The cultural disconnect is huge.
......
Apparently, death, or prison, or grounding for life, is less important than face, and cultural tradition.
We in the "West" had some of that for a while, whereby the CA was a demigod. But even then, not many FO's are going to allow Cappy to kill everyone when they recognize immediate danger.
......
Apparently, death, or prison, or grounding for life, is less important than face, and cultural tradition.
We in the "West" had some of that for a while, whereby the CA was a demigod. But even then, not many FO's are going to allow Cappy to kill everyone when they recognize immediate danger.
They do in more than a few Asian cultures.
Failure is a better and more face saving outcome than quitting. Those who have taught Chinese students will tell you that generally, they would rather purposefully sabotage their training at the risk of hurting themselves or someone else than ask to quit.
Crashing an airplane IS better than going around. Seriously. That's the nasty combination of a lack of uncertainty avoidance (traditional religious values say that everything will be okay) and the desire to save face.
It's not a race thing, since there are plenty of pilots from other places of Asian descent that do just fine, it's a cultural thing.
#315
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Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 480
I think the definition of "on station" is what might be in question here. The individuals ejected from the aircraft and observed by the UAL crew were thousands of feet from the wreckage. Is it not possible that they were without aid for much longer than those egressing the aircraft at the location it finally came to rest?
3 minutes feels like eternity to a pilot. Have you ever timed yourself performing memory items? You can very reasonably have taken the appropriate action on a hung or hot start in like FIVE seconds. Waiting 30 seconds for a fire to be out or still going to blow secondary fire bottles feels like forever as well.
Pilots spend years mastering flows until you appear to be a wizard to a layman. A pilot watching fire trucks rolling a few minutes into a disaster seems like they were asleep, but it's standard. I've had fires put out and been inspecting damage from the exterior as firefighters showed up.
#316
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: In the TRACON
Posts: 109
As controllers, we give alerts and warnings, but leave the airplane flying to the pilots. None of us as controllers are qualified to make decisions based on how a 777 crew flies the last 7 seconds of their approach unless it involves a runway safety issue (another a/c crosses a hold short line, etc).
#317
I think the definition of "on station" is what might be in question here. The individuals ejected from the aircraft and observed by the UAL crew were thousands of feet from the wreckage. Is it not possible that they were without aid for much longer than those egressing the aircraft at the location it finally came to rest?
There is no doubt that during a stress filled situation that time compression doesn't set in - even in the cockpit right?
"a long time"...."appeared slow"?
Under what conditions and definitions do these descriptions fit?
I'm sure for an person who has stumbled away from the wreckage and is lying injured in the dirt - time seems an eternity. For first responders rushing towards a mishap I'm sure time flew by.
#318
Yea, I understand what you're saying about rusty but...not impressed. For a ferry flt sure. But a revenue flt no! I've watched guys shut-off the automation. "Look what a good pilot I am." What do you think the media's and the company's reaction will be when they learn you have the automation off and you were, God forbid, involved in a mishap. Especially those with safety redundancies like auto throttles. You'd be hung out to dry. Just wait until we learn Asiana had AT off. The pilots will be even more roasted. IMO once you're in the big leagues flying heavy metal those "look at me" days are over!! For your passengers sake!! Sorry, I'll get off my soap box. Just my safety training.
#319
Like I said before, if tower gets altitude alerts from approach radar they will pass that along...not all small towers have that. SFO does, but it was probably too late in this case.
I'm sure if they happened to be looking during the crucial last second they would have keyed the mike (but probably too late in this case).
#320
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: retired
Posts: 992
That's exactly what I'm wondering? What was happening at 1,000 and 500 AGL. Two points that are almost universally used for trip wires on an unstabilized approach in IMC and VFR respectively. Were the throttles at idle then? Were the A/T even on? What was the vertical mode?
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