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Asiana 777 Crash at SFO

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Asiana 777 Crash at SFO

Old 07-12-2013, 10:23 AM
  #501  
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Originally Posted by atpcliff View Post
It IS good the 777 has a visual warning...the plane I'm flying does not...but I still think an Aural warning is needed, as you might not be looking at the PFD when your airspeed decays....it is VERY easy to get distracted...like on the EAL everglades flight.
Cliff, Cliff, the -400 is the same. The current airspeed box goes amber when you hit minimum maneuvering speed and you get an AIRSPEED LOW EICAS message. My last PC the CA said you can start the recovery then but for the longest time it was ignore those warnings, wait for the stick shaker.

Maybe we could get Hersman to make a recording for the warning system:

"Your .. Air .. Speed .. Is .. Low."
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:34 AM
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I've long said there are 3 phases to learning a new airplane: 1) It's flying you 2) You're flying it 3) You can fly it in the box it came in. No matter what else happened or is discovered; this guy was in phase 1...
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
Isn't that the whole idea of PF and P 'not flying'/'monitoring' - in a multi-crewed airplane. Someone is looking OUTSIDE flying and someone is looking INSIDE monitoring?
Not at all. PM is monitoring everything and is legally obligated to intervene if safety may be compromised. Doesn't matter whether the PM is PIC or SIC.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:18 AM
  #504  
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Originally Posted by APC225 View Post
Not at all. PM is monitoring everything and is legally obligated to intervene if safety may be compromised. Doesn't matter whether the PM is PIC or SIC.
Not sure you understood what I am talking about.
If you thought I was making a statement about the PF and PM/PNF duties being PIC/SIC specific - then you misunderstood my post.

atpcliff posted:
It IS good the 777 has a visual warning...the plane I'm flying does not...but I still think an Aural warning is needed, as you might not be looking at the PFD when your airspeed decays....it is VERY easy to get distracted...like on the EAL everglades flight.



It seems to me that he is stating that the PF is not watching his airspeed decay because he is concentrating on looking outside and therefore needs an aural warning to alert him. My contention is that the PNF/PM should be montioring the airspeed. The PNF/PM is the PF's eyeballs inside the cockpit for the exact purpose of catching deviations
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:18 AM
  #505  
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Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
Anyone know if the ATC audio in this video is at full speed and unedited (ignoring the video)? If so, the landing clearance seems to have come VERY late, only :20 seconds before you hear a "go around" call by Skywest, I believe (a GA aircraft is transmitting as well at the time). Oddly, Asiana reports they're "7 miles south, 28L" just prior, :25 seconds before the "go around" call. 7 miles, land/crash, and a pilot initiated go-around based on the visuals of the crash all in :25 seconds? Simple math tells me that's an average groundspeed of over 1000 kts over that last 25 seconds! NTSB reports they were doing less than 120 kts around the same time. Something doesn't add up here.

This initial video probably gives a very rough approximation of the action, which is nice to look at, I guess.

I'll wait for the NTSB report's video animation for the facts.
Read the YouTube description of the video from the guy that created it. He addresses this.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by APC225 View Post
Not at all. PM is monitoring everything and is legally obligated to intervene if safety may be compromised. Doesn't matter whether the PM is PIC or SIC.
Legally?? So, his motivation to not cause a crash is that he might get sued(if he survives)?

BTW, I don't see anyone you're replying to making any reference to PIC/SIC so what's that got to do with it?
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
It seems to me that he is stating that the PF is not watching his airspeed decay because he is concentrating on looking outside and therefore needs an aural warning to alert him. My contention is that the PNF/PM should be montioring the airspeed. The PNF/PM is the PF's eyeballs inside the cockpit for the exact purpose of catching deviations

Never to mention the bunkie FO sitting in the 'smart' seat....
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MD11Fr8Dog View Post
Never to mention the bunkie FO sitting in the 'smart' seat....
Yes - I'm sure that things would go much smoother if there were autothrottles to keep the speed from getting to slow, visual cues on the speed tapes, verbal messages coming through warning of slow speed, and a pilot(s) sitting in the seat next to you (or behind you)n then we'd not have these problems - - but adding another warning is going to fix it.

Guess it could have been the 6th level of safety that would have saved the day - or it might have been the 6th level of safety ignored that day.

There was once a midair between to fighters practicing dogfighting.
They had violated FIVE (5) of the CURRENT air-to-air training rules briefed prior to every such flight. The safety board decided that adding 2 or 3 more rules would fix the problem. This sort of reminds me of that.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mike734 View Post
It's interesting. If this incident turns out to be some sort of watershed event, will it mean more reliance on automation, (after all it's those inexperienced pilots who are problem), or less reliance on automation (pilots need to keep basic flying skills sharp)?

Regulation always seems to crop up after watershed events. Maybe it means a push to replace us with automation ASAP but in the mean time, more hand flying. I don't count on congress to get it right.

Thread hijack? Sorry.
I think the fallout on this will be contained where it belongs: RoK

Anyone who studies this incident to any depth will come to understand that this would be very unlikely to have occurred in US 121 operations...too many of us are still good at basic stick-and-rudder flying.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:12 PM
  #510  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
I think the fallout on this will be contained where it belongs: RoK

Anyone who studies this incident to any depth will come to understand that this would be very unlikely to have occurred in US 121 operations...too many of us are still good at basic stick-and-rudder flying.
Thank you Mr. Prime Minister. I agree with you.

I did two "tours of duty" on the 777 and am still in TOTAL disbelief that this accident happened. It's too early to determine the primary cause of this accident....but if the actions of the two "pilots" in the two front seats isn't a primary cause, I'll buy dinner and drinks for everyone !

Still cannot fathom how this happened....and I've worked with the Koreans.

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