UPS Accident - BHM
#251
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 9
Visual or Approach?
Did I miss it? Were they on a visual or IAP?
Our Collins Proline defaults to a 3.0 PATH on a visual, but you can plug in what you want.
When we go someplace new and take a visual we consult the approach charts and see if it is non standard,if it is, we simply override 3.0 for something higher and wait for the snowflake.
Our Collins Proline defaults to a 3.0 PATH on a visual, but you can plug in what you want.
When we go someplace new and take a visual we consult the approach charts and see if it is non standard,if it is, we simply override 3.0 for something higher and wait for the snowflake.
#252
We don't know all the details yet, but the airport was VFR so my expectation is that they were VMC.
The majority of arrivals I've flown at FDX have been Visuals backed up by the appropriate approach.
Assuming the FMS is the same iteration as FDXs, can't really plug in a path on the visual the way it sounds like you can. But, the FMS will build a vertical path based on the instrument approach you have loaded up---so, for FDXs, it would have generated a path consistent with the PAPI for 18.
There's been some discussion of PAPI useage, quite frequently you can see them for forever and a day, but they are only good for terrain clearance close to the airport (4SM to be precise-although 4NM for a VASI----things that make you go hmmmm, in AIM)
As the factual data comes out, will be interesting to see what their G/S was. Steeper than normal approach, slight TW reported, doesn't take much of an aimpoint shift to trigger a sink rate call out
The majority of arrivals I've flown at FDX have been Visuals backed up by the appropriate approach.
Assuming the FMS is the same iteration as FDXs, can't really plug in a path on the visual the way it sounds like you can. But, the FMS will build a vertical path based on the instrument approach you have loaded up---so, for FDXs, it would have generated a path consistent with the PAPI for 18.
There's been some discussion of PAPI useage, quite frequently you can see them for forever and a day, but they are only good for terrain clearance close to the airport (4SM to be precise-although 4NM for a VASI----things that make you go hmmmm, in AIM)
As the factual data comes out, will be interesting to see what their G/S was. Steeper than normal approach, slight TW reported, doesn't take much of an aimpoint shift to trigger a sink rate call out
#254
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 90
I'd be interested to see if the plane was descending fast to get back on the PAPIs. A mile short of that runway there's barely 100' of terrain clearance with the 3.2 degree path, so if you flew down through that it wouldn't take much to get real close to the ground...
#255
Wow. Didn't realize how little clearance there is on that approach. Jut took a look at the LOC 18 plate. I can see why some people have brought up the brush and houses right there. I had a friend take some photos of the area to get an idea of what it looks like on the approach. Looks like a slight deviation can indeed being one very close to terrain.
NTSB to hold final press briefing on site at 4 pm. I believe it will be streaming on youtube.
NTSB to hold final press briefing on site at 4 pm. I believe it will be streaming on youtube.
#256
Update to the update?
On my local TV this morning, the aviation 'geniuses' were saying the UPS A300 received speed warnings shortly before the accident (it would be easy to verify this on the FDR and Voice Recorder). We all know about turbojet low speed warnings but these seemed to be high speed warnings.
Assuming these news media reports are correct?
I've never flown an Airbus ... what kind of high speed warnings are there? I've never heard any on airplanes that I've flown (don't even remember any?)
Assuming these news media reports are correct?
I've never flown an Airbus ... what kind of high speed warnings are there? I've never heard any on airplanes that I've flown (don't even remember any?)
#257
If you fly what looks like a normal 3-degree glidepath to the runway, you will be very low over the hill at half a mile final.
A (still normal-looking) 2.5 degree would have you skimming the ground.
To fly to this runway with reasonable ground clearance, you must fly what appears to be an abnormally-steep final; hence the 3.28 degree Glideslope on the approach plates.
When we go someplace new and take a visual we consult the approach charts and see if it is non standard,if it is, we simply override 3.0 for something higher and wait for the snowflake.
That PAPI-4 system should have at least 1 deg of clearance if you were to ride in ALL RED from nearly 4 miles out. The tolerance for the PAPI is +/- 0.2 deg from design.
BRUCE - that snowflake is an important safety feature and certainly is worth using provided you know the limitations. That advisory vertical angle on the NP approaches WILL NOT necessarily provide you with obstruction clearances all the way to the threshold.
kronan - you are correct about the range of that particular PAPI system though each have their own service volumes. You say that at FDX he FMS would have generated a path based on the instrument approach selected (assuming the advisory 3.28 based on the LOC) but then you mention the 3.20 GP of the PAPIs. Just looking for clarification as I am not familiar with your FMS system.
#258
I also think Swed blender is full of it. One doesn't drop a two 12 day trips (24) for training and not get a day restored. Usually multiple or all days restored. Vacation also. Scheduling is very good at this. And having Zero days restored is BS.
The only way to not fly as much is to live in the Awesome city of Louisville.
The only way to not fly as much is to live in the Awesome city of Louisville.
Last edited by Swedish Blender; 08-17-2013 at 11:18 AM.
#259
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,883
4000 is plenty for a regional but for a LCC/Major, it's on the low side. Keep in mind the stagnation due to Age 65 and the recession has kept guys in their current seats for 5+ years. There are lots of guys at regionals with greater than 5000 hrs. Spirit and Virgin America both require a minimum of 4000 hours. Legacies advertise lower hours, but competitive will be much higher.
#260
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 90
UAL/Hayduke - I'm sure that it is a 'low skimming approach' or at least it looks like one and the definition of adequate clearance is questionable.
That PAPI-4 system should have at least 1 deg of clearance if you were to ride in ALL RED from nearly 4 miles out. The tolerance for the PAPI is +/- 0.2 deg from design.
That PAPI-4 system should have at least 1 deg of clearance if you were to ride in ALL RED from nearly 4 miles out. The tolerance for the PAPI is +/- 0.2 deg from design.
As I read it, you'd get a degree of clearance at 3 red/1 white.
I hadn't realized it was this tight, but getting a degree of clearance at ~1 mi out gives you 92ft over the terrain. Factor in the darkness and a possibly steeper descent to get back on glide path...
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