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Pilots involved in hijacking rule changes
I am looking to interview pilots for the book 58 November about my father's hijacking in 1971.
I am searching for who worked with their MEC and national unions from the late 60's-70's. I am specifically interested in pilots who were part of any with with the ICAO Convention in the Hague in 1970. if you worked on any committees that addressed hijacking safety and or procedures I would like your story. I would like to hear the stories of people who had conflicts with either FAA, FBI, Airport Police and or their corporate management concerning these issues in the 60's and 70's If you are one of these guys, or know someone who is, please contact me. I am trying to show how much work the pilots themselves put into these reg changes. Now if you fall under this category for any time from the 70's to present I would like your perspectives as well. This is an important piece about PIC authority in crisis situations. I really hope to hear from you all in the near future. Any other positions where you had experience with these security topics would be great. If you saw something I'd like to hear it. Unlike most books on aviation, you will really like the end product. But I do ask for your help Andy Downs Please email me [email protected] website 58 November - Documentary Film :: 58 November phone 615-474-0590 (Call anytime...having been in the business for decades, I get the strange hours. If I am up I will answer, if not I'll call you back.) |
Andy, I hope one of the main points you cover is that the policy to go along with hijackers and not resist was the security weakness exploited which resulted in 9/11.
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Originally Posted by jungle
(Post 1467245)
Andy, I hope one of the main points you cover is that the policy to go along with hijackers and not resist was the security weakness exploited which resulted in 9/11.
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Tactics change.
There was a time when not resisting was the proper tactic - like a calvary charge. Not any more. |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 1467281)
Tactics change.
There was a time when not resisting was the proper tactic - like a calvary charge. Not any more. Times changed before the ink was really dry, and it turned out that the tactics were wrong right out of the gate and it took decades to fix, but not before thousands died. Just as before, deranged individuals remain a greater daily threat than real terror attacks. |
I have found some of the old FAA security front line guys who tested the security checkpoints before the TSA started keeping everyone safe at airports, truck weigh stations, political rally, rodeos and county fairs.
Should have some good stuff on how the higher echelon re-wrote evaluations of security breaches to show how great they were. Also some from today with TSA |
Interesting piece of history is not one fatality has ever occurred due to decision a captain has made during a hijacking. LEOs don't have that track record. That is a worldwide fact as well.
Another one is how the the Hague Convention of 1970 was pushed to the front of the agenda. TWA 840 was hijacked on Aug 29, 1969. On Aug 31st US State Department sent telegram asking ICAO for emergency meeting to discuss new protocols. They cited the TWA 840 as the reason. Up until that point the US had been dragging their feet. |
How is it the FAA not only worked the hijacking of 58November from BNA-JAX ; were defendants in the case, yest have no records indicating that my dad was not only hijacked, but shot to death in the plane?
Please see the letter I received from the FAA claiming no records exist on my dad's case. Does anyone have any ideas as to why? Would anyone have a contact I could reach out to and try and get some answers? I'm not sure if other can understand my position on this. It is like they have erased my dad's life and death out of the history books. The FAA letter and other documents on the case are on this link. Also be aware there are crime scene pictures so don't open this around if you have kids in the room. FBI Secret Memos on 58November - Imgur [email protected] and please let me know your thoughts and ideas on where to go next. It would mean a great deal to my family. Andy Downs |
Not to offend, but why would the FAA have records from that long ago? Where would such records be kept? It seems that this would not be very important for the FAA, but other organizations that deal with security like the FBI and TSA may have historical files on it? Just from my FAA perspective, I don't know why the FAA would have that information or where it would be kept if it even existed. Historical regulations and regulatory information are much more important to them. As you go back in accident/incident history it drops off very quickly after a certain year, as the data was just never captured , and that's for events that fall into those specific categories. The FOIA request just deals with information that they may actually have, just because something happened or did not doesn't mean they have the information supporting it, just due to normal circumstances through time. Hope that doesn't come off too harsh or anything, but if a certain agency does have that historical information, I suppose the trick is figuring out which one it is. There's likely more in newspaper archives I'd imagine?
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FAA Records
Well 1st, it is part of the FAA mandate to keep records of all incidents and accidents/ hijackings. That is part of their mission.
You can find other hijacking events on their website faa.gov Next, the FAA was a defendant in the case. FAA personnel testified at the trial, gave depositions, etc. The DOT Secretary and FAA D director of Safety were also named. This was the 1st hijacking in the US where a captain had been killed. The records should be maintained in their archives.....everything they do gets stored there from since the agency was created. |
Originally Posted by 58November
(Post 1548743)
Well 1st, it is part of the FAA mandate to keep records of all incidents and accidents/ hijackings. That is part of their mission.
You can find other hijacking events on their website faa.gov Next, the FAA was a defendant in the case. FAA personnel testified at the trial, gave depositions, etc. The DOT Secretary and FAA D director of Safety were also named. This was the 1st hijacking in the US where a captain had been killed. The records should be maintained in their archives.....everything they do gets stored there from since the agency was created. Our Mission Our continuing mission is to provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world. Our Vision We strive to reach the next level of safety, efficiency, environmental responsibility and global leadership. We are accountable to the American public and our stakeholders. Our Values Safety is our passion. We work so all air and space travelers arrive safely at their destinations. Excellence is our promise. We seek results that embody professionalism, transparency and accountability. Integrity is our touchstone. We perform our duties honestly, with moral soundness, and with the highest level of ethics. People are our strength. Our success depends on the respect, diversity, collaboration, and commitment of our workforce. Innovation is our signature. We foster creativity and vision to provide solutions beyond today's boundaries. FAA's major roles and responsibilities Under the broad umbrella of safety and efficiency, we have several major roles: Regulating civil aviation to promote safety Encouraging and developing civil aeronautics, including new aviation technology Developing and operating a system of air traffic control and navigation for both civil and military aircraft Researching and developing the National Airspace System and civil aeronautics Developing and carrying out programs to control aircraft noise and other environmental effects of civil aviation Regulating U.S. commercial space transportation Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to see you pointed in a direction that would be helpful, rather than a false hope. |
It should be kept in mind, that safety and security are not the same, and that their principles are often mutually exclusive. So if the FAA is safety-oriented - “Under the broad umbrella of safety” - then it can't be at the same time security-minded. Conversely, the TSA couldn't care less about safety. It does works with the FAA, but only reluctantly, and often in bitter conflict – which it usually wins. The “impenetrable” cockpit door is a good example. Just ask any ARFF crew what he thinks of it.
For obvious reasons, public discussion of this topic [security] would be self-defeating. Therefore, only general comments are appropriate here. First, security ought not be treated as a safety issue. Although the objects of both functions may be the same (i.e. to protect someone or something), the nature of the threat is not. Safety is protection against involuntary threats; security is protection against deliberate threats. It would be as absurd to try to prevent aggression by applying principles of safety as it would be to try to prevent accidents by applying principles of security. For example a dead-bolt on the front door of the cottage would be as ineffective against carbon monoxide gas as a guardrail on the roadside would be against a burglar. Sometimes, the two functions conflict. Putting bars on windows to prevent a burglar from gaining entry into the cottage blocks means of egress in case of fire. Therefore, both security and safety must take into account mutual co-existence and discourage competition. (G.N. Fehér, Beyond Stick-and-Rudder, Hawkesbury, 2013, p. 314) The mutual exclusivity of these two notions is especially evident in the data processing industry. Whereas one of the means to safeguard data from loss is the maintenance of multiple safety-backups, protecting it from unauthorized access means limiting copies. |
Originally Posted by 58November
(Post 1548743)
Well 1st, it is part of the FAA mandate to keep records of all incidents and accidents/ hijackings. That is part of their mission.
You can find other hijacking events on their website faa.gov Next, the FAA was a defendant in the case. FAA personnel testified at the trial, gave depositions, etc. The DOT Secretary and FAA D director of Safety were also named. This was the 1st hijacking in the US where a captain had been killed. The records should be maintained in their archives.....everything they do gets stored there from since the agency was created. In addition, most gov't FOIA officers I've dealt with are just a bunch of dumba$$ GS goons who make a paycheck for having a heartbeat and showing up to work. If this is really important to you, don't fight this yourself. Seek professional assistance. |
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