El Guapo

Lost comm procedures over Brazil? More like standard ops. Brazillia & Amazonica FIR's are a joke. 30 - 40 mins without being able to reach anyone is the norm, even more so 2 -3 years ago.

newarkblows

three year old thread..... why?

aewanabe

In addition to the possibility of the TCAS accidentally being selected off, the 145 series and the E-Jet families both have well-known TCAS blanking problems. I'm surprised that hasn't been more of a factor in the discussions.

Zapata

why not?


perhaps it is because someone found it interesting enough to rekindle? ya think?

CAL EWR

Since I am the one who started this thread, I believe the following post is justified. I really don't know why this old thread has been brought back to life?

Below is what my good friend Doug Marotta wrote about Joe and Jan. I was fortunate enough to meet both Joe and Jan when they walked off the plane to a huge celebration in Long Island Mac Arthur Airport (ISP) when they came home from this ordeal.

It's not in the thread below and I can't find where Doug wrote about the this, but I do remember him telling me the following. The transponder put in the new EMB-135 was not new in fact it was an used previously and removed for several write ups for either part or all of the transponder being inop.

Below is Doug Marotta's post from February 2008.



"Jan is in fact back at AA. Joe is still flying for ExelAire, in the Embraer. His career is damaged severely, probably beyond repair. The Brazilians have demanded that they both be returned to Brazil for a "fair trial" - and yes, the Brazilians do manage to say that with a straight face somehow. Due to this demand and their fully understandable refusal to return to Brazil, Joe and Jan can't leave the U.S. for fear that another foreign government may have no choice but to extradite them back to Brazil. Joe is now a charter pilot flying an aircraft that does mostly international trips, and he can't go international. I don't know Jan very well, and I don't know how he's handling that situation back at AA. I would imagine he has some arrangement with the company to keep him domestic, but I really don't know for certain. What a mess.

Joe and Jan spoke at great length with the Brazilian equivalent of the NTSB in Washington a while back. The Brazilians continue to try to place blame on them for allegedly turning off their transponder. Both Jan and Joe are adamant that they did no such thing. All audio tapes of the incident are very clear that both aircraft, the 737 that was so tragically lost, and the Embraer that Joe and Jan so skillfully piloted to a safe landing despite severe damage, were EXACTLY where they were so clearly told to be by the Brazilian Air Force controllers. They were following directives from ATC perfectly, and had no reason whatsoever to turn off the transponder. Why in the world would they do such a thing?

Unfortunately, both aircraft were told to be in the same point in the sky at the same time. Clearly there was a failure in the transponder in the Embraer, because for over an hour prior to the accident controllers (ATC in Brazil is staffed by the Brazilian Air Force) on the tapes are heard on numerous occasions discussing the fact the the Embraer had no transponder signal. Unfortunately, for over an hour they were aware of this and never once saw fit to tell the pilots of the Embraer that they had no signal. Averting this tragedy could easily have been a simple as telling Joe and Jan that they had no Mode S and to switch to Transponder #2. Keep in mind that this was a brand new aircraft, straight from the Embraer factory, heading home on it's maiden flight. Can you imagine the lawsuits in Brazil if the brand new transponder was proven to be faulty? Can you imagine the motivation by the Brazilian government to protect it's main manufacturing giant, and it's own Air Force?

Due to the politics and economics of the controllers being Brazilian Air Force and the brand new aircraft with a faulty transponder being built by one of the largest and most vital companies in Brazil, clearly the decision has been made by the Brazilian government to hang the pilots as the scapegoats. It's easier, cheaper and less embarrassing than going after the ineptness of their own Air Force, or the company that is one of the largest contributors to the GNP of their nation.

Joe and Jan's insurance coverage for their legal defense is about to hit the max limit, and they'll be on their own financially to finance their own legal defense. To make matters worse, they are each being sued personally by the families of virtually everyone on board the 737. Our government has allowed the Brazilian citizens to sue them in the American as well as the Brazilian civil court system. The Brazilian and American attorneys representing the family members have colluded to make the case as difficult and expensive as possible by filing individual suits in over 20 different states, trying to force the insurance companies into a settlement by driving up the costs of an effective defense. You and I as American taxpayers are footing the court costs for all this.

There is every chance, and even an expectation that this case could bankrupt these two fine pilots, leaving them and their families with out a career and a home. It could have easily have been one of us down there.
Again, neither they nor the crew of the 737 did anything wrong. They were both exactly where they were told to be, exactly when they were told to be there, just as you or I piloting a CAL, DAL, NWA, AA, UAL aircraft, or any other plane would have been. There but for the grace of God go I (or we)..........

Please keep these two fine gentlemen in your thoughts and prayers."

Bombinha

I am sorry but u started this tread and u need to listem to the facts instead of defend some poor pilots.
I hold both licences Brazilian (ICAO) and USA (FAA) and whoever here flies international knows pretty well the difference on rules between FAA and ICAO for instance some of those differences include but not limited to ETOPS dor example where an AC with 4 enfines need to imediate return to suitable airport on FAA rules on ICAO its not considered an emergency and its is indeed captain discretion if u remember well a BA 744 did go direct to london after losing an engine on TO from LAX. Also radio com states that over uninhabited area the AC need to contact ATC at least every hour and every 30min for populated areas that rule was not acomplish by legacy pilots. Also ICAO states that if u experiment lost com u should adjust u fight to keep as close as u can from ur FPL and arrive at destination (not lande ate nearest airport like FAA) well that rule was not acomplish because most of the pilots in USA don't even knwo how to read an ICAO FPL because u dont file FPL in USA u just call 1-800-WX-BRIEF so based on these factors alone one could be well condemned for negligence operation since there is no excuse for not having knowledge of ur highly technical profession. I am an American citizen by born but i am dual citizem i have several degress in USA and i really have no interest and puting down our already so bad image overseas but part of this bad image is that some people here alwasy think they can do bad stuff on other conturies and walkway unpunished which gave us the arrogant fame that we carry overseas. U only right when u say that legacy pilost didn't do anything wrong on FAA rules but they were flying under ICAO airspace and mandatory to comply with that even beyond they were both abscent from cockpit at one point in FLT and did not perfomr IFALPA procedures which is in the JEPPS chart form radio comunication even with bilateral VHF to make a call on free frequency determined on the chart. I am not defending the controlers. They were already condemend also for negligence operation and with some extras which i also agree but if Joe and Jan don't want to even have a worst reputation and being wanted by interpolin the future they should think about getting a lawyer and go down there for trials. Trial there are more fair than here in USA if u care for an opnioin of someone who already tried both first handed. So as u see i am not just saying my opinion i am showing facts now u can flame me because thats what we do best in USA, But i don't think they should wlak away from this because if we dont like when a intoxicated driver hit and run we should not abide some pilots with poor knowledge of rules and regulations keep endangering the skies.

2StgTurbine

I find this very hard to believe with the numerous misspellings and poor grammar. I don't see how you can have several degrees from US schools with your writing.

Rather B Fishin

WOW. That has to BE the MOST ignorant, unintelligent, non-gramatically correct, waste of a post I have EVER read on this forum. Climb back into your hole from whence you came.
Or you could continue to defend a corrupt, banana republic government that does not understand the words integrity, honesty and morality.

Bombinha

one more thing based on facts i just exposed stoip blaming the TCAS/Xpdr for this accident because Xpdr was just a little small piece on that chain of events which started with the owner trying to save money instead of paying Embraer fee to deliver the plane and using to pilots that were not familiar with ICAO rules nor FPL and didnt know much about flying over Amazon region neither. According to their FPL they should have changed FL 360 over BSB than climb again FL380 at another point they never did that and kept flying wrong way after leaving a one way airway reason for that they said in court was because it was showing on FPL FL block but everyone familiar with ICAO FPL form know that on FL block u only put ur first FL and the rest is discriminated on field 18 where u gonna climb or where u gonna change FIR etc. So one more time the fact its agaisnt them and they said that in court not me so they didnt know how to read the ICAO FPL also they didnt file it because they didn't know how to do it so an Embraer pilot did file the FPL for them on AIS room (we dont' have AIS room in USA) But they do in Europe and most of ICAO airports where u have to go to fill up ur FPL and get a copy of the FPL. If its a commercial airline a certified dispatcher can do it and u get the strip only but not for private jets.

Roll Inverted and Pull

Bombihha....If you are going to waste band width, at least learn how to spell.