Possible Pilot Deviation
 

Hello all.

I fly a C208 135 and was flying into KSAT last night. I was cleared for the visual approach 12R while I was 15nm out. I was on a wide right base for 12R and then I become distracted with an dispatch calling at the last second, and I lost visual with the runway (not the airport) and once I reorientated myself, I aligned with that I thought was 12R and was really 04. Once I contacted the tower they realized I was lined up on 04 and said no problem runway 04 cleared to land. There was a MD80 on short final for runway 22 (about 5 miles out and had to do Sturns)

Once I landed I expedited and went to cargo after apologizing profoundly, and ATC said no problem.

There was no loss of separation and no evasive action was required. ATC didn't give me a number nor ask for any details.

I know this was a stupid mistake and I've been beating myself up all day. Is there any legal issue I should be worried about or was that the end of it?

I take that back. The MD80 wasn't on short final, just final.

I wouldn't worry about any legal/enforcement action. You were cleared to land on 04 and you landed on 04 IAW your clearance. End of story. I think I'd worry more about taking calls from dispatch or engaging in any low-level activity that might compete for my attention. Live and learn – and live – I suppose.

File a NASA form and sleep soundly. With that said, if ATC didn't collect "evidence" against you (phone call after landing, asked you why did you line up on 04 over the radio, etc) and nobody else in the sky complained or got upset as a result, I would say very unlikely this will turn into anything.

If ATC did not notify you via VHF radio of the possible pilot deviation, (this is called the "Brasher Notification") then you might be OK. However, if there is any doubt, file a NASA ASRS form!

Regardless of if there is doubt, file the form! If your company participates in ASAP, file that as well.

NASA form has been submitted.

Confession is good for the soul. Even though there was no "Call this number when you land," I'd second the ASRS form, you can do it on line in less than 5 minutes.

And now you see why most airlines set up the approach even on VMC days (or nights.)

I should have also mentioned, the greatest danger following such incidents is the tendency to conform, rather than perform. You might want to watch out for that. It's real, but fortunately doesn't last long.

I have heard of situations where ATC said nothing and weeks later the PIC got a letter in the mail or call from the chief's office.

File an NASA ASRS report.

maybe next time, ignore dispatch.

You could still get violated, but the punishment would probably be waived, ie no suspension. But it would still be on your record.

Yes.

You got a compass in that 208?

Do you know a heading of 120 is 80 degrees off of a heading of 040?

You do have your instrument ticket, right?

When in doubt, trust the compass, and don't let yourself get distracted by dispatch messages. I'm sure the tower and MD88 guys got a chuckle out of it, and you learned an important lesson, I hope.

It sounds like the Tower saved you from any legal action, don't sweat it, and next time, know where you are in the pattern and don't turn final if you don't.

It could have been ugly, meeting an MD88 coming the other way after you landed.

That is absolutely correct. Even if the controller you are working with says "no problem", a routine review of tapes and data by a supervisor or higher authority could send the enforcement branch your way. I've heard of cases where it was several weeks after the incident before the letter of investigation was issued.

If you even momentarily think 'should I file an ASAP or NASA', then you absolutely should. Fortunately the OP indicates he filed a NASA. While not nearly as good as an ASAP, it would prevent you from having to 'serve the sentence' and in this case my gut tells me ASAP is not an option at his employer.

Good! You should be fine. I'm just glad you got the NASA form submitted. Now go spread the word to your fellow pilots who find themselves in a similar situation in the future.

Good advice. Everyone gets distracted. I hope you learned from it. The way you describe it I don't see a deviation (maybe if you were off frequency for a while). We get C208's that essentially line up with a crossing runway then turn a very short final. It looks kind of cool and sounds like what you almost did. If I clear you for a visual approach with no restrictions and you aren't following any traffic visually, it's on me if there is conflict. There are certain profiles I expect, but you have a lot of discretion on a visual.

A few years back we were told not to say "no problem" on the frequency because it can make it harder to take enforcement action. We can also get in a lot of trouble for not reporting a possible pilot deviation. Good luck.

As everyone else has said, NASA form, and refrain from any non essential tasks when in low level flight. I don't know how your company is, but it's policy for most to only worry about essentials when in the terminal area.

I'm not sure, in the case of a possible deviation, why someone should also fill out an ASAP report (if available at their company). If it just involves the FAA, why report yourself to the company also? We know these aren't really de-identified, and some guys are filling out ASAP reports constantly to cover themselves. I guess I don't really understand the system that much, and while I definitely see filling out a NASA report for a possible violation, why get yourself investigated by the company also?

Well, one reason is that the ASRS only waives the penalty at the end of an NTSB hearing, after judgement is rendered, so you'll still be found "guilty" of a violation, just that a possible suspension will be waived.

ASAP is set up for protecting the certificate holder for violations and occurrences (in addition to general safety reporting functions). In this respect, if the violation wasn't an intentional gross violation ("I had a few beers 5hrs ago, but damn I'm feeling pretty good now, let's go!"), there is usually nothing on your record and even if you get a warning-letter as the outcome of the ASAP, it can't be PRIAed by a prospective employer. If you are having repercussions from the company for freely sharing safety information about non-intentional violations and just general safety concerns, you need to contact the POI and FAA ASAP reps, and maybe even their managers-asap (haha), because there is a fundamental problem with your program. If you are asking "why get yourself investigated by the company" it shows that there is some sort of problem with the program. Also, consider that if there's a pilot deviation, the FAA WILL investigate it and they likely WILL contact your company to get information about you, information that the company is required to keep by FARs. It's not going to be a secret that you are being investigated for a pilot deviation. In the scheme of things, these are pretty small things unless there was a loss of separation or some type of situation where the potential hazard was much greater than normal. If it's a decent sized company, they probably have multiple pilot deviation investigations going on much of the time, these things happen, so the FAA has tried to have some programs (there are others besides ASAP) to try and recognize this and the fact that humans don't perform 100% perfectly 100% of the time.

The other issue is that if it's a sole-source ASAP, you are pretty well protected. If it's non-sole source, your ASAP can still be accepted (usually given the benefit of the doubt if it was not an intentional action/violation). If you don't do any ASAP, using a certificate for a certificate holder (commercial operations) usually has a pretty high standard of conduct and that is something that is taken into account when investigating the violation. Not filing an ASAP could end poorly, especially if you provide no information that would help the investigation determine if it was just a "slip" vs. it happened because you aren't competent. The ASAP program usually makes that much easier, as the lines of communication are open without fear of reprisal. The ATC guys are required to report pilot deviations. As investigators, we are required to investigate them. We are trying to determine if it was a routine violation and the above described "slip", or if we have a pilot operating out there that is a danger to the public. Obviously the path this could take varies widely depending on those factors. ASAP helps immensely and I highly recommend to use it.

Thanks for that details explanation, JamesNoBrakes, that makes much more sense now! I can understand why someone would file an ASAP report, definitely.

In my situation, I've never gotten a deviation, warning letter, or even a request to call a controller back, in decades of flying. I'm not worried about a letter from the FAA (not going to apply for another flying job, ever), I am more concerned about a fine. I can't even remember a time that I was worried about getting deviated, but talking to some guys....it seems like they are constantly filling out ASAP reports for things that come close.

I wonder about the wisdom of filling out a report for things that aren't possible violations---such as while the other guy is flying....autopilot doesn't catch the altitude, he corrects too slowly and before you know it, he's 250 feet off. Not 300 feet, ATC doesn't say anything, but it's close. Or they give you direct, you forget to take it off heading select for awhile, you realize it, and reselect. Things that are obviously errors, but not to the point that anyone mentions it. When I read up about ASAP reports, they say they take into account how often the type of things reported have happened to you, and it makes me wonder that if you're the type of person who is constantly reporting your errors, while most people don't...wouldn't that make you seem reckless?

I really appreciate the explanation of why to do an ASAP. That's the best one I've read.

You win as a crew and lose as a crew.

The guy not flying is still responsible for making sure the guy flying is following the rules and complying with procedures and atc guidance

ASAP programs are all about pointing out the minor mistakes every pilot makes from time to time. Providing the data so that if a departure or arrival results in a bunch of deviations it can be modified if needed. They also give us pilots an opportunity to learn from others mistakes. Most of which we already know of, but the reminder to just FLY the plane is very beneficial- and there's the occasional new mistake or thing I didn't think of before reading of them.

All of which is great. I don't have enough time to always learn the hardway, and prefer taking the easy way and learning from someone else's mistake

"The guy not flying is still responsible for making sure the guy flying is following the rules and complying with procedures and atc guidance"

Most definitely. There is no, "He did it, so it's not my fault..." especially for the captain.

"ASAP programs are all about pointing out the minor mistakes every pilot makes from time to time."

I guess I'm trying to figure out how minor the mistake should be before you don't file an ASAP report. Considering the time of day we usually fly, I'm sure we make more minor mistakes than many, but that is often due to fatigue, not disregard of the rules or incompetence. Should we really file an ASAP for every trivial mistake we make (that could be several per flight, if we're being honest), or should we only file if we think it's a safety issue or we're concerned about being violated? It seems to me that some people are filing constantly...some are never filing, there has got to be a reasonable way that people do this.

During WW I, pilots who worried about staying alive didn't. Those who worried about missing a kill did. Today, conformance means covering your butt and a clean record: performance means getting the job done and food on the table. In both eras, those who are preoccupied with themselves lose; those who focus on their tasks win.

As for ASAPs, I don't know of any hard rules. Do what you think is right, not what others say or do. File one when you think it will benefit someone else. That's what it's for.

That's exactly what it's for though. To gather data on potential safety issues and hopefully identify them before they cause an accident. Lots of times I get complaints from pilots asking about why things can't be a certain way or how a certain service provided by ATC is substandard. That's fine, but without data, I can't make a case for it and magically change it. If ASAP is capturing that data on the other hand, then we have something and can make our case based on the data and get something done oftentimes.
The program is not intended just for violations, that's a part of it. It's intended to capture safety related data. Some of those might be related to violations, but if all we are getting is violations, then we or someone else hasn't done the job of selling and educating properly. It's about a lot more than violations. On the subject of violations though, if you have a sole-source violation or near-violation (ATC didn't report it), then it's usually 100% protected, again except in the case of some sort of gross negligence, which is obviously fairly rare. Sole-source means you as the pilot are the only one that knows it occurred, because no one else reported it and ATC didn't say anything. Although it is harder to investigate, ATC can still report things to flight standards and they can still come back and investigate, having filed an ASAP helps immensely again. If no one "witnesses" the violation, the intent of the program is to capture that data without punishing the "violator". That's the entire point.
Hopefully the above helps to explain it.

Thank you, JamesNoBrakes, that really helps. I feel much more educated and comfortable about filing an ASAP report. I appreciate your explanation, thank you!!

when in doubt, fill it out

Back before my company got cheap, they used to compile and print out quarterly ASAP booklets for any pilot to grab and read. Sounds dry as hell, but I and most everyone I knew read them voraciously. So many times, you read a guy's ASAP and think "Yeah, I could have done that" and you learn a lot from them.

Most of all, you learn that it's a zero-threat thing to fill out an ASAP. If you ASAP the Captain's tie as being stained, all they'll do is say "Not applicable." But a lot of ASAPs that appear trivial, end up saving a crews' collective butt.

And if one guy files, so should the other.

Here's a link to some of that "dry reading", published monthly. Seriously, it's a good read.

ASRS CALLBACK - Aviation Safety Reporting System

I'd just like to add: in my almost 25 years in the FAA (ATC), the only reason you'd be reported for a deviation is if separation is lost, or gross incompetence (which I've never seen).

If separation is lost, the computer detects it and everything's documented and blame has to be assigned to someone. The FAA certainly doesn't want it and will try to pass it off as a pilot deviation if at all possible (and FSDO will bounce it back and claim it's an ATC error so it's not always clearcut -- FSDO and ATC are competing branches).

But if separation is NOT lost, nobody wants tapes to be pulled. The controller doesn't want anyone scrutinizing everything he did over the past 30 minutes, the supervisor on duty doesn't, and the facility doesn't. If you're told "not a problem," that's the end of it. We don't do random audits of day-to-day operations, just occasional audio checks to monitor phraseology and professionalism.

Even if you're told to call in, that goes to the supervisor in charge and he will probably mention if separation was lost or not (or you can ask). If he says separation wasn't lost, he's just going through the motions and nothing will ever come of it. Just be contrite and polite.

Thanks for the post. However, I work for a legacy carrier and we have been told by our Flt Ops management (in bulletins ...) that over the last few years guys have been getting the dreaded "certified letter," months after an event -- usually a lateral deviation of as little as < 0.5nm on RNAV departures -- with nary a peep from the controller.

Are these campfire ghost stories?

Um, are you still an active controller? The reason I ask is that even before I joined the FAA, I was cautioned by some controllers in a presentation when the "rules changed", requiring them to report all pilot deviations and "violations" as simple as part of the aircraft drooping over the hold short line. According to them at the time, this was to make us in line with ICAO. This was a few years back now, but in my time in the FAA I can say with certainty that pilot deviations ARE reported to Flight Standards and the pilot may not get a call from ATC about it, for several reasons, but we still get the information. In addition, ATC has all kinds of criteria that require them to fill out MORs. If someone gets a flat tire, we hear about it. If there is a pilot deviation, we hear about it. There are some things that may not trigger the alarms, some built in "buffers" so to speak, but otherwise the above is not the way things work now, where I'm at. Also where I used to be a few years ago.

The FSDO doesn't "bounce things back", in cases where we can't prove a pilot deviation, we file a report that says just that. If there are ATC issues, we have to let the ATC QC guy know, but they police their own and have their own investigations.

I'm enroute. We didn't get that at my facility, but it might be a regional thing.

Well yes, we don't get a lot from center, but approach we get more, and then most from towers.

Thanks.

Just curious, APC MODS: how many posts are needed to get full forum access? The signup page says five but I still only see a subset. I can prove I'm not a spambot if you want -- ask me anything.

I thought it was ten, but could be wrong.

How sophisticated is the TARP system? I know it produces auto reports, but I was wondering what it produced auto reports of. What criteria causes it to submit and do they have these system wide or only certain locations? And which facilities have them?