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-   -   Not understanding AoA indicators... (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/84956-not-understanding-aoa-indicators.html)

METO Guido 09-27-2015 05:19 AM


Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 1979709)
Minor correction - The two AOA probes on the side of the jet (at least on 777) activate the stick shaker. PLI is simply a computer generated reference on the PFD that shows the pitch at which shaker will occur.

Signal transmitted from AoA probes, indeed. Thank you.

Armstrong, Yeager, even prolific aviation commentator emeritus Dick Collins, at least one thing in common; not airline pilots. Humbly submit it is you, veteran line professionals, most qualified to determine which cockpit technologies are best suited to keeping airliners out of harms way.

cardiomd 10-03-2015 05:18 PM


Originally Posted by METO Guido (Post 1980042)
Signal transmitted from AoA probes, indeed. Thank you.

Armstrong, Yeager, even prolific aviation commentator emeritus Dick Collins, at least one thing in common; not airline pilots. Humbly submit it is you, veteran line professionals, most qualified to determine which cockpit technologies are best suited to keeping airliners out of harms way.

Good job with your sycophantic posting! In conjunction with the design engineers, of course, we all agree. AOA probes are and should be in airliners who routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope. That is not up for debate.

However, that was not the question debated:


Originally Posted by Yoda2 (Post 1763074)
Not understanding why, lately, many seem to feel it is so important to have AOA indicators in light aircraft. This almost seems like a workaround or some type of attempt at a solution for lack of basic flying skills? If loss of control is an issue, couldn't that reflect more on training or just a dumb, unknowledgeable or risk taking pilot?

The error is a very small subset of "veteran line professionals" or those in the military try to generalize their experiences to all GA aircraft, which can lead to nonsensical regulation and focus on another "whiz-bang gauge" instead of learning basic flying skills and the feel of flight. When talking about regulations and technique for light aircraft, I "humbly submit" to experienced GA pilots, or (ex) airline pilots who fly a lot of light aircraft, or those knowledgeable in aircraft design and aerodynamics.

METO Guido 10-04-2015 05:18 AM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1984889)
Good job with your sycophantic posting! In conjunction with the design engineers, of course, we all agree. AOA probes are and should be in airliners who routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope. That is not up for debate.

However, that was not the question debated:



The error is a very small subset of "veteran line professionals" or those in the military try to generalize their experiences to all GA aircraft, which can lead to nonsensical regulation and focus on another "whiz-bang gauge" instead of learning basic flying skills and the feel of flight. When talking about regulations and technique for light aircraft, I "humbly submit" to experienced GA pilots, or (ex) airline pilots who fly a lot of light aircraft, or those knowledgeable in aircraft design and aerodynamics.

My goodness...MD, Engineer & Pilot, I'm just so grateful you manage to find the time in what must be a very demanding schedule to share all that knowledge here.

Speaking of GA, do the wings fold on a Skylane? Just had a great idea where you could hangar that thing, cheap.

Whiz whiz, bang bang.

FDXLAG 10-04-2015 06:02 AM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1984889)
Good job with your sycophantic posting! In conjunction with the design engineers, of course, we all agree. AOA probes are and should be in airliners who routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope. That is not up for debate.

However, that was not the question debated:



The error is a very small subset of "veteran line professionals" or those in the military try to generalize their experiences to all GA aircraft, which can lead to nonsensical regulation and focus on another "whiz-bang gauge" instead of learning basic flying skills and the feel of flight. When talking about regulations and technique for light aircraft, I "humbly submit" to experienced GA pilots, or (ex) airline pilots who fly a lot of light aircraft, or those knowledgeable in aircraft design and aerodynamics.

So doc who is more likely to "routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope"? An airline full of 100s of people with two or more professional pilots at the controls or the doctor in his 1972 Bonanza?

RhinoPherret 10-04-2015 11:43 AM

"Good job with your sycophantic posting! In conjunction with the design engineers, of course, we all agree. AOA probes are and should be in airliners who routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope. That is not up for debate."

Yes. Airline pilots push the envelope on every flight. :rolleyes:
Isnít the progression to naturally transition from airline pilot too USAF Flight Test School or PAX River? :confused:

Gawd! The lunacy that abounds by some GA pilots in this forum is amazing! I will just chalk that wonderful bit of wisdom to up to troll baiting.

METO Guido 10-04-2015 01:47 PM

Troll baiting??? Got Hannibal Lecter on my 6 and you're worried about trolls. BTW Doc, my liver is very compromised. Won't go at all well with Chianti and fava beans.

2StgTurbine 10-04-2015 09:02 PM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1984889)
Good job with your sycophantic posting! In conjunction with the design engineers, of course, we all agree. AOA probes are and should be in airliners who routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope. That is not up for debate.

Sorry Doc, but you are off in left field. GA pilots operate much closer to the envelope than any turbine powered passenger plane. Don't worry, no one is going to make you spend money to install an AOA gauge in your 10 year old SR-20. What most professional pilots are saying is that requiring new aircraft to include an AOA gauge (which itself is cheap) would greatly benefit the next generation of pilots.

Although you personally feel you have a grasp on AOA, as someone who has spent plenty of time instructing many pilots, I can tell you there are a lot pilots who do not fully grasp the factors that cause an aircraft to stall. Unfortunately, most GA pilots spend 99% of their time in 1G flight, so that means 99% of the time they associate stalls with a specific airspeed. Sure, they might memorize knowledge test and oral examine test questions that link stalls to AOA, but when it comes actually controlling the aircraft, they associate stalls with airspeed. And although I can show them a stall at a 60* bank in a C-150, the truth is the speed the plane stalls at in a 60* bank is still pretty low. Unfortunately, years later they may find themselves in a jet stalling at high altitude and although they might "know" a plane can stall at any airspeed, years of actual experience and a lack of learning with an AOA gauge will tell them that the chances of them stalling their plane at 180 KIAS is very small and there must be a problem with their altimeter.

Personally, I think every new aircraft should include an AOA gauge and all pilot training should reference AOA teaching. Beside preventing stalls, using an AOA gauge simplifies performance climb, best glide, and landing speeds. An alternative would be to require future pilots to go through an aerobatic course and high altitude upset recovery training. But, I think an AOA gauge would be cheaper.

Adlerdriver 10-04-2015 09:24 PM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1985090)
So doc who is more likely to "routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope"? An airline full of 100s of people with two or more professional pilots at the controls or the doctor in his 1972 Bonanza?


Originally Posted by RhinoPherret
Yes. Airline pilots push the envelope on every flight. :rolleyes:
Isnít the progression to naturally transition from airline pilot too USAF Flight Test School or PAX River? :confused:

I don't know guys - I think he was simply referring to the times we're in the "corner" of the envelope, typically at high altitude cruise. Personally, I like having accurately derived flight envelope information on my instruments rather than going into paper charts like we used to have to do.

You've never had to climb a few thousand feet above optimum or get close to max when you're still a little too heavy so you can get the altitude you need for a crossing? Not that we're talking test pilot stuff or life and death - I just know there have been a few times that I've been stuck with maybe a 20 knot spread between stall and MMO.

I don't have a lot of light airplane time, but I don't remember that same thing being an issue.

METO Guido 10-05-2015 05:13 AM

He ain’t interested in aerodynamic theory, just in believing he’s smarter than you because of something he read in flying magazine or dreamed up while watching the right stuff for the 20th time. Oh, did I mention how smart he is, 755 posts of brilliance. Probably a medical records supervisor. Pucker down on some pretend practitioner’s pompous pickle? Pass.
Like I said initially, never had the opportunity to observe an AoA indicator do its thing. Wouldn’t mind seeing what all the fuss is about. Made a difference with AF447? Complicated assumptions there, very. Looking forward to the promised sim improvements and what any new upset training will look like.
“Hey Ridley, got any Beeman’s?”

FDXLAG 10-05-2015 05:39 AM


Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 1985518)
I don't know guys - I think he was simply referring to the times we're in the "corner" of the envelope, typically at high altitude cruise. Personally, I like having accurately derived flight envelope information on my instruments rather than going into paper charts like we used to have to do.

You've never had to climb a few thousand feet above optimum or get close to max when you're still a little too heavy so you can get the altitude you need for a crossing? Not that we're talking test pilot stuff or life and death - I just know there have been a few times that I've been stuck with maybe a 20 knot spread between stall and MMO.

I don't have a lot of light airplane time, but I don't remember that same thing being an issue.

It depends on the airplane, but most of the time in the 72, 75, and 76 I have worried about the overspeed more than the stall as we got higher. In cruise, I am more likely to need to slow down then speed up. What little I remember about light airplanes is the higher I got the more I worried about staying above stall. Not saying you cant out climb your lift potential and power available, but I think a bonanza probably operates closer to the extremes. To me AOA has always been a concern of too much lift generated with absence of energy to sustain it.


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