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-   -   Not understanding AoA indicators... (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/84956-not-understanding-aoa-indicators.html)

cardiomd 10-05-2015 02:11 PM


Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 1985518)
I don't know guys - I think he was simply referring to the times we're in the "corner" of the envelope, typically at high altitude cruise. Personally, I like having accurately derived flight envelope information on my instruments rather than going into paper charts like we used to have to do.

You've never had to climb a few thousand feet above optimum or get close to max when you're still a little too heavy so you can get the altitude you need for a crossing? Not that we're talking test pilot stuff or life and death - I just know there have been a few times that I've been stuck with maybe a 20 knot spread between stall and MMO.

I don't have a lot of light airplane time, but I don't remember that same thing being an issue.

Thanks, Adler, you are absolutely correct. You have a very good understanding on how close to Q corner a transport airliner can go (and routinely does go), and don't just let the computer do the work for you.

I honestly can't believe some of the other responses. Sadly comical in ignorance and arrogance.

FDXLAG 10-05-2015 02:48 PM

So doc if I google stalls per 1000 take offs which one is more likely to pop up, the doctor or the airline. I seriously don't know, I am sure you can tell me. Let's use fatalities in our search because I'm sure not a lot of doctors self report.

RhinoPherret 10-06-2015 12:32 AM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1985928)
Thanks, Adler, you are absolutely correct. You have a very good understanding on how close to Q corner a transport airliner can go (and routinely does go), and don't just let the computer do the work for you.

I honestly can't believe some of the other responses. Sadly comical in ignorance and arrogance.

LOL! You are such a HOOT!

As has been pointed out often by so many others, you just like to ARGUE (not discuss) issues. Lecturing, slinging text book passages, and internet links does not cut it. The rest of the folks here usually back up their DISCUSSIONS with knowledge and skills gained from their PROFESSIONAL civilian and military flying careers. Stick to backing up your (try discussions instead of arguing) with more consistent real world flight experiences that YOU encounter and you may find some true street cred someday here. Otherwise, keep on arguing and lecturing so you can see yourself in print if that is what keeps ya going.

Flightcap 10-06-2015 04:04 AM


Originally Posted by RhinoPherret (Post 1986222)
LOL! You are such a HOOT!

As has been pointed out often by so many others, you just like to ARGUE (not discuss) issues. Lecturing, slinging text book passages, and internet links does not cut it. The rest of the folks here usually back up their DISCUSSIONS with knowledge and skills gained from their PROFESSIONAL civilian and military flying careers. Stick to backing up your (try discussions instead of arguing) with more consistent real world flight experiences that YOU encounter and you may find some true street cred someday here. Otherwise, keep on arguing and lecturing so you can see yourself in print if that is what keeps ya going.

For the record, my school is based at one of the top 5 busiest airports in Ohio. I've seen plenty of unprofessional bizjet pilots and also plenty of professional GA pilots. Having flown a particular type of aircraft shouldn't be a pre-requisite for having a discussion about aerodynamics.

On AoA, my university and the FAA recently conducted a study using flight path data to compare the performance of GA pilots during takeoff, landing, and stalls with or without an AoA. The data is still being compiled. I didn't participate, but from the pilots who did I haven't heard any "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" kind of talk.

RhinoPherret 10-06-2015 05:26 AM


Originally Posted by Flightcap (Post 1986251)
For the record, my school is based at one of the top 5 busiest airports in Ohio. I've seen plenty of unprofessional bizjet pilots and also plenty of professional GA pilots. Having flown a particular type of aircraft shouldn't be a pre-requisite for having a discussion about aerodynamics.

On AoA, my university and the FAA recently conducted a study using flight path data to compare the performance of GA pilots during takeoff, landing, and stalls with or without an AoA. The data is still being compiled. I didn't participate, but from the pilots who did I haven't heard any "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" kind of talk.

So, based on the fact YOU have not heard any pilots say "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" we have surmised what?

If you do not care to use AoA, your choice. However, to try and brow-beat others that DO understand and DO USE the AoA guage, is a crusade that some have picked as their fetish/go-to rant, just makes you wonder, really?

cardiomd 10-06-2015 03:44 PM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1985608)
What little I remember about light airplanes

With all due respect, then why are you arguing in such a maniacal fashion with somebody who has a good deal of current experience in them? Flying freight does not an expert in aerodynamics make, as your posts prove. I don't argue with you about nuances of flying the 767 or about things I'm not familiar with.


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1985955)
So doc if I google stalls per 1000 take offs which one is more likely to pop up, the doctor or the airline. I seriously don't know, I am sure you can tell me. Let's use fatalities in our search because I'm sure not a lot of doctors self report.

Your posts come across as a series of non-sequiturs. First it "who is closer to the edge of the envelope," now it is stalls per 1000 takeoffs data?

As a simple logical thought process for you, regulations aside, could you make a typical flight in your 767 without an AOA or pitot probe? I hope not. However, a light aircraft easily could. During my training we would often cover the ASI, fly pitch and power, or estimate speeds by control feel. We still have the emergency AOA indicator, AKA stall horn. It is good training and I'd advise all light plane pilots to do this.

cardiomd 10-06-2015 03:54 PM


Originally Posted by Flightcap (Post 1986251)
For the record, my school is based at one of the top 5 busiest airports in Ohio. I've seen plenty of unprofessional bizjet pilots and also plenty of professional GA pilots. Having flown a particular type of aircraft shouldn't be a pre-requisite for having a discussion about aerodynamics.

On AoA, my university and the FAA recently conducted a study using flight path data to compare the performance of GA pilots during takeoff, landing, and stalls with or without an AoA. The data is still being compiled. I didn't participate, but from the pilots who did I haven't heard any "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" kind of talk.

A few of the usual suspects feel threatened, just ignore them. :) I wonder how they ever got through school with the fancy-talkin' professor of aerodynamics tryin' to teach stuff that probably never flown but 2,000 hours in his life, but I think I know the answer.

Interesting, I read about a study ongoing with the UND flight school, is it the same FAA study?

I predict you will be right. At low G loads and in nonaccelerated flight, we already have a perfectly accurate AOA gauge :), and I can't imagine that holding the speeds vs AOA would make a big delta for any of the standard maneuvers.

METO Guido 10-06-2015 05:03 PM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1986687)
A few of the usual suspects feel threatened, just ignore them. :) I wonder how they ever got through school with the fancy-talkin' professor of aerodynamics tryin' to teach stuff that probably never flown but 2,000 hours in his life, but I think I know the answer.

Interesting, I read about a study ongoing with the UND flight school, is it the same FAA study?

I predict you will be right. At low G loads and in nonaccelerated flight, we already have a perfectly accurate AOA gauge :), and I can't imagine that holding the speeds vs AOA would make a big delta for any of the standard maneuvers.

What you're looking for, what you need, can't be found here.

rickair7777 10-07-2015 05:57 AM

[MOD INPUT] Gentlemen, please tone things down a bit and stick to the technical merits of AoA (which apparently is a topic of strongly held opinions).

METO Guido 10-07-2015 06:46 AM

Just a little good natured jousting:)

Where's Pancho Barnes when you need her?


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