Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Safety (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/)
-   -   Not understanding AoA indicators... (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/84956-not-understanding-aoa-indicators.html)

FDXLAG 10-07-2015 07:08 AM

[MOD EDIT] Here is my argument:

AOA is a useful tool for all pilots as it gives instanteous feedback on how the wing is performing (in some cases even a damaged wing), when a stall is broken, how to recover with minimum energy loss, best glide speed, and when your aircraft might not be configured like you think it is.

Your argument is: I dont like broccoli and you cant make me eat it.

Now if you don't think you need AOA it is fine. If you don't think you need a pitot probe fine. It does not make my argument less valid.

As far as stalls and AOA, I will not explain the relationship to you if you can not see it.

FDXLAG 10-07-2015 07:53 AM

Anyone else suspect the moderators double as WWF refs?

RhinoPherret 10-07-2015 08:53 AM

You know why I feel AoA indicators are a good adjunct item to have in GA aircraft, if for no other reason? Because statistics, flight school instructor staff, and my own humble observations through the years continue to show that on average, GA pilots and GA students are lousy at airspeed control! That destroys the very valid concept that good airspeed control improves performance safety. This is not a shocking new development that many GA pilots are not good at airspeed control, especially on final appraoch. It really does not matter if you are flying low speeds in a piston aircraft because if you cannot maintain proper airspeed, an AoA is really even more important as an adjutant instrument to the pilot who cannot maintain proper airspeed control. Thinking that one cannot make use of an AoA gauge due to one’s superior pilot skill sets and “feel” for the aircraft is very foolish thinking. Doubt that? Just review GA accident investigations and notice the consistent theme of lack of basic airmanship skills, lack of situational awareness, arrogance, and yes downright foolishness that contributes to the majority of GA accidents.

Yes the AoA gauge requires some extra learning for a pilot to know how to react to the gauge’s indications. I guess that may be an extra burden to some (most?) of the GA pilots that the statistics demonstrate on average, manage to log only about 25 hours per year! A lot of GA pilots feel they have very good skill sets and know the “feel” of their aircraft very well. As I noted previously, the majority of GA aircraft accident investigations consistently invalidate that very dangerous notion.

vagabond 10-07-2015 09:22 AM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1987037)
Anyone else suspect the moderators double as WWF refs?

LAG, don't make me hurt you. ;)

FDXLAG 10-07-2015 10:06 AM


Originally Posted by vagabond (Post 1987128)
LAG, don't make me hurt you. ;)

Hey it was a compliment. It wouldn't be much of a show without the refs.:D

Fluglehrer 10-07-2015 07:38 PM

Visualize Whirled Peas
 

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 1986943)
[MOD INPUT] Gentlemen, please tone things down a bit and stick to the technical merits of AoA (which apparently is a topic of strongly held opinions).

The FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, oddly enough (and to my great surprise), has this interesting statement:

"The key to stall awareness is the pilot’s ability to visualize the wing’s angle of attack in any particular circumstance, and thereby be able to estimate his/her margin of safety above stall. This is a learned skill that must be acquired early in flight training and carried through the pilot’s entire flying career. The pilot must understand and appreciate factors such as airspeed, pitch attitude, load factor, relative wind, power setting, and aircraft configuration in order to develop a reasonably accurate mental picture of the wing’s angle of attack at any particular time. It is essential to flight safety that a pilot take into consideration this visualization of the wing’s angle of attack prior to entering any flight maneuver." (AFH pg 1-6 under "Stall Awareness"; italics mine)

So, you can "understand and appreciate factors such as airspeed, pitch attitude, load factor, relative wind, power setting, and aircraft configuration in order to develop a reasonably accurate mental picture of the wing’s angle of attack", or, you can just use an AOA indicator. On my best days I may be smart enough to juggle all those factors and possibly understand them, but to ask me to also appreciate them is just too much.
...and then to ask me to visualize and develop a reasonably accurate mental picture of the wing's angle of attack prior to entering any flight maneuver? I don't have that many brain cells anymore. I'll take the AOA gauge.

cardiomd 10-12-2015 07:32 PM

I completely agree with the FAA AFH quote.



So, you can "understand and appreciate factors such as airspeed, pitch attitude, load factor, relative wind, power setting, and aircraft configuration in order to develop a reasonably accurate mental picture of the wing’s angle of attack", or, you can just use an AOA indicator. On my best days I may be smart enough to juggle all those factors and possibly understand them, but to ask me to also appreciate them is just too much.
...and then to ask me to visualize and develop a reasonably accurate mental picture of the wing's angle of attack prior to entering any flight maneuver? I don't have that many brain cells anymore. I'll take the AOA gauge.
When many students start instrument training, the idea of "understanding" all of those gauges and getting the scan down is difficult. Then it becomes pretty much automatic, and I hand-fly IFR while doing multiple other tasks without thinking about it. It is the same with the visualization of wing loading, AOA and power for a GA craft. Those that simply refer to the "AOA gauge" are at risk of losing, or never developing, the skills that the AFH refers to.

Again to clarify my consistent position, I would find an AOA gauge somewhat interesting, and would not object to it on a new plane. I'm simply not naiive enough to think this will affect accident rates, or will be of general utility outside of training. We already have an "aural emergency AOA indicator." I never use it unless I am three inches above the ground. ;)

cardiomd 10-12-2015 07:43 PM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1986990)
[MOD EDIT] Here is my argument:

AOA is a useful tool for all pilots as it gives instanteous feedback on how the wing is performing (in some cases even a damaged wing), when a stall is broken, how to recover with minimum energy loss, best glide speed, and when your aircraft might not be configured like you think it is.

Your argument is: I dont like broccoli and you cant make me eat it.

Now if you don't think you need AOA it is fine. If you don't think you need a pitot probe fine. It does not make my argument less valid.

As far as stalls and AOA, I will not explain the relationship to you if you can not see it.

No, my argument is more "I don't need cod liver oil because it is not needed." Gradually moms across the country also realized that cod liver oil can be good for some people, but don't have to shove it down the throats of otherwise healthy individuals. Do you force your kids to take cod liver oil?

Again for somebody that does not fly GA, you seem to sure know what is best for GA. It is a different type of flying from two person crewed operations in a high performance turbine. Air is thick down here, speeds are slower, and wings have a lot of lift. The pilot gets direct control feedback (try that in an Airbus ;) ) How is a GA pilot going to benefit from knowing "exactly when a stall is broken" if he can't feel it on his own?

An additional gauge is simply not needed and would not add safety beyond the emergency warning AOA gauge, already installed in most systems.

METO Guido 10-13-2015 04:02 AM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1991187)
No, my argument is more "I don't need cod liver oil because it is not needed." Gradually moms across the country also realized that cod liver oil can be good for some people, but don't have to shove it down the throats of otherwise healthy individuals. Do you force your kids to take cod liver oil?

Again for somebody that does not fly GA, you seem to sure know what is best for GA. It is a different type of flying from two person crewed operations in a high performance turbine. Air is thick down here, speeds are slower, and wings have a lot of lift. The pilot gets direct control feedback (try that in an Airbus ;) ) How is a GA pilot going to benefit from knowing "exactly when a stall is broken" if he can't feel it on his own?

An additional gauge is simply not needed and would not add safety beyond the emergency warning AOA gauge, already installed in most systems.

“Feeling” when a stall is broken? Equivocal statement, please clarify.
In the mean time, feel free to post your clinical experience with narcissistic personality disorder on JAMA.net. It’s kind of like Airline Pilot Central, except it’s for doctors.

FDXLAG 10-13-2015 04:21 AM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1991187)
No, my argument is more "I don't need cod liver oil because it is not needed." Gradually moms across the country also realized that cod liver oil can be good for some people, but don't have to shove it down the throats of otherwise healthy individuals. Do you force your kids to take cod liver oil?

Again for somebody that does not fly GA, you seem to sure know what is best for GA. It is a different type of flying from two person crewed operations in a high performance turbine. Air is thick down here, speeds are slower, and wings have a lot of lift. The pilot gets direct control feedback (try that in an Airbus ;) ) How is a GA pilot going to benefit from knowing "exactly when a stall is broken" if he can't feel it on his own?

An additional gauge is simply not needed and would not add safety beyond the emergency warning AOA gauge, already installed in most systems.

Sure doc whatever you say. It takes a bit man to know he lost an argument and admit he's wrong.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:08 PM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands