Signal transmitted from AoA probes, indeed. Thank you.

Armstrong, Yeager, even prolific aviation commentator emeritus Dick Collins, at least one thing in common; not airline pilots. Humbly submit it is you, veteran line professionals, most qualified to determine which cockpit technologies are best suited to keeping airliners out of harms way.

Good job with your sycophantic posting! In conjunction with the design engineers, of course, we all agree. AOA probes are and should be in airliners who routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope. That is not up for debate.

However, that was not the question debated:

The error is a very small subset of "veteran line professionals" or those in the military try to generalize their experiences to all GA aircraft, which can lead to nonsensical regulation and focus on another "whiz-bang gauge" instead of learning basic flying skills and the feel of flight. When talking about regulations and technique for light aircraft, I "humbly submit" to experienced GA pilots, or (ex) airline pilots who fly a lot of light aircraft, or those knowledgeable in aircraft design and aerodynamics.

My goodness...MD, Engineer & Pilot, I'm just so grateful you manage to find the time in what must be a very demanding schedule to share all that knowledge here.

Speaking of GA, do the wings fold on a Skylane? Just had a great idea where you could hangar that thing, cheap.

Whiz whiz, bang bang.

So doc who is more likely to "routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope"? An airline full of 100s of people with two or more professional pilots at the controls or the doctor in his 1972 Bonanza?

"Good job with your sycophantic posting! In conjunction with the design engineers, of course, we all agree. AOA probes are and should be in airliners who routinely fly near the edges of the flight envelope. That is not up for debate."

Yes. Airline pilots push the envelope on every flight. :rolleyes:
Isn’t the progression to naturally transition from airline pilot too USAF Flight Test School or PAX River? :confused:

Gawd! The lunacy that abounds by some GA pilots in this forum is amazing! I will just chalk that wonderful bit of wisdom to up to troll baiting.

Troll baiting??? Got Hannibal Lecter on my 6 and you're worried about trolls. BTW Doc, my liver is very compromised. Won't go at all well with Chianti and fava beans.

Sorry Doc, but you are off in left field. GA pilots operate much closer to the envelope than any turbine powered passenger plane. Don't worry, no one is going to make you spend money to install an AOA gauge in your 10 year old SR-20. What most professional pilots are saying is that requiring new aircraft to include an AOA gauge (which itself is cheap) would greatly benefit the next generation of pilots.

Although you personally feel you have a grasp on AOA, as someone who has spent plenty of time instructing many pilots, I can tell you there are a lot pilots who do not fully grasp the factors that cause an aircraft to stall. Unfortunately, most GA pilots spend 99% of their time in 1G flight, so that means 99% of the time they associate stalls with a specific airspeed. Sure, they might memorize knowledge test and oral examine test questions that link stalls to AOA, but when it comes actually controlling the aircraft, they associate stalls with airspeed. And although I can show them a stall at a 60* bank in a C-150, the truth is the speed the plane stalls at in a 60* bank is still pretty low. Unfortunately, years later they may find themselves in a jet stalling at high altitude and although they might "know" a plane can stall at any airspeed, years of actual experience and a lack of learning with an AOA gauge will tell them that the chances of them stalling their plane at 180 KIAS is very small and there must be a problem with their altimeter.

Personally, I think every new aircraft should include an AOA gauge and all pilot training should reference AOA teaching. Beside preventing stalls, using an AOA gauge simplifies performance climb, best glide, and landing speeds. An alternative would be to require future pilots to go through an aerobatic course and high altitude upset recovery training. But, I think an AOA gauge would be cheaper.

I don't know guys - I think he was simply referring to the times we're in the "corner" of the envelope, typically at high altitude cruise. Personally, I like having accurately derived flight envelope information on my instruments rather than going into paper charts like we used to have to do.

You've never had to climb a few thousand feet above optimum or get close to max when you're still a little too heavy so you can get the altitude you need for a crossing? Not that we're talking test pilot stuff or life and death - I just know there have been a few times that I've been stuck with maybe a 20 knot spread between stall and MMO.

I don't have a lot of light airplane time, but I don't remember that same thing being an issue.

He ain’t interested in aerodynamic theory, just in believing he’s smarter than you because of something he read in flying magazine or dreamed up while watching the right stuff for the 20th time. Oh, did I mention how smart he is, 755 posts of brilliance. Probably a medical records supervisor. Pucker down on some pretend practitioner’s pompous pickle? Pass.
Like I said initially, never had the opportunity to observe an AoA indicator do its thing. Wouldn’t mind seeing what all the fuss is about. Made a difference with AF447? Complicated assumptions there, very. Looking forward to the promised sim improvements and what any new upset training will look like.
“Hey Ridley, got any Beeman’s?”

It depends on the airplane, but most of the time in the 72, 75, and 76 I have worried about the overspeed more than the stall as we got higher. In cruise, I am more likely to need to slow down then speed up. What little I remember about light airplanes is the higher I got the more I worried about staying above stall. Not saying you cant out climb your lift potential and power available, but I think a bonanza probably operates closer to the extremes. To me AOA has always been a concern of too much lift generated with absence of energy to sustain it.

Thanks, Adler, you are absolutely correct. You have a very good understanding on how close to Q corner a transport airliner can go (and routinely does go), and don't just let the computer do the work for you.

I honestly can't believe some of the other responses. Sadly comical in ignorance and arrogance.

So doc if I google stalls per 1000 take offs which one is more likely to pop up, the doctor or the airline. I seriously don't know, I am sure you can tell me. Let's use fatalities in our search because I'm sure not a lot of doctors self report.

LOL! You are such a HOOT!

As has been pointed out often by so many others, you just like to ARGUE (not discuss) issues. Lecturing, slinging text book passages, and internet links does not cut it. The rest of the folks here usually back up their DISCUSSIONS with knowledge and skills gained from their PROFESSIONAL civilian and military flying careers. Stick to backing up your (try discussions instead of arguing) with more consistent real world flight experiences that YOU encounter and you may find some true street cred someday here. Otherwise, keep on arguing and lecturing so you can see yourself in print if that is what keeps ya going.

For the record, my school is based at one of the top 5 busiest airports in Ohio. I've seen plenty of unprofessional bizjet pilots and also plenty of professional GA pilots. Having flown a particular type of aircraft shouldn't be a pre-requisite for having a discussion about aerodynamics.

On AoA, my university and the FAA recently conducted a study using flight path data to compare the performance of GA pilots during takeoff, landing, and stalls with or without an AoA. The data is still being compiled. I didn't participate, but from the pilots who did I haven't heard any "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" kind of talk.

So, based on the fact YOU have not heard any pilots say "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" we have surmised what?

If you do not care to use AoA, your choice. However, to try and brow-beat others that DO understand and DO USE the AoA guage, is a crusade that some have picked as their fetish/go-to rant, just makes you wonder, really?

With all due respect, then why are you arguing in such a maniacal fashion with somebody who has a good deal of current experience in them? Flying freight does not an expert in aerodynamics make, as your posts prove. I don't argue with you about nuances of flying the 767 or about things I'm not familiar with.

Your posts come across as a series of non-sequiturs. First it "who is closer to the edge of the envelope," now it is stalls per 1000 takeoffs data?

As a simple logical thought process for you, regulations aside, could you make a typical flight in your 767 without an AOA or pitot probe? I hope not. However, a light aircraft easily could. During my training we would often cover the ASI, fly pitch and power, or estimate speeds by control feel. We still have the emergency AOA indicator, AKA stall horn. It is good training and I'd advise all light plane pilots to do this.

A few of the usual suspects feel threatened, just ignore them. :) I wonder how they ever got through school with the fancy-talkin' professor of aerodynamics tryin' to teach stuff that probably never flown but 2,000 hours in his life, but I think I know the answer.

Interesting, I read about a study ongoing with the UND flight school, is it the same FAA study?

I predict you will be right. At low G loads and in nonaccelerated flight, we already have a perfectly accurate AOA gauge :), and I can't imagine that holding the speeds vs AOA would make a big delta for any of the standard maneuvers.

What you're looking for, what you need, can't be found here.

[MOD INPUT] Gentlemen, please tone things down a bit and stick to the technical merits of AoA (which apparently is a topic of strongly held opinions).

Just a little good natured jousting:)

Where's Pancho Barnes when you need her?

[MOD EDIT] Here is my argument:

AOA is a useful tool for all pilots as it gives instanteous feedback on how the wing is performing (in some cases even a damaged wing), when a stall is broken, how to recover with minimum energy loss, best glide speed, and when your aircraft might not be configured like you think it is.

Your argument is: I dont like broccoli and you cant make me eat it.

Now if you don't think you need AOA it is fine. If you don't think you need a pitot probe fine. It does not make my argument less valid.

As far as stalls and AOA, I will not explain the relationship to you if you can not see it.

Anyone else suspect the moderators double as WWF refs?

You know why I feel AoA indicators are a good adjunct item to have in GA aircraft, if for no other reason? Because statistics, flight school instructor staff, and my own humble observations through the years continue to show that on average, GA pilots and GA students are lousy at airspeed control! That destroys the very valid concept that good airspeed control improves performance safety. This is not a shocking new development that many GA pilots are not good at airspeed control, especially on final appraoch. It really does not matter if you are flying low speeds in a piston aircraft because if you cannot maintain proper airspeed, an AoA is really even more important as an adjutant instrument to the pilot who cannot maintain proper airspeed control. Thinking that one cannot make use of an AoA gauge due to one’s superior pilot skill sets and “feel” for the aircraft is very foolish thinking. Doubt that? Just review GA accident investigations and notice the consistent theme of lack of basic airmanship skills, lack of situational awareness, arrogance, and yes downright foolishness that contributes to the majority of GA accidents.

Yes the AoA gauge requires some extra learning for a pilot to know how to react to the gauge’s indications. I guess that may be an extra burden to some (most?) of the GA pilots that the statistics demonstrate on average, manage to log only about 25 hours per year! A lot of GA pilots feel they have very good skill sets and know the “feel” of their aircraft very well. As I noted previously, the majority of GA aircraft accident investigations consistently invalidate that very dangerous notion.

LAG, don't make me hurt you. ;)

Hey it was a compliment. It wouldn't be much of a show without the refs.:D

Visualize Whirled Peas
 

The FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, oddly enough (and to my great surprise), has this interesting statement:

"The key to stall awareness is the pilot’s ability to visualize the wing’s angle of attack in any particular circumstance, and thereby be able to estimate his/her margin of safety above stall. This is a learned skill that must be acquired early in flight training and carried through the pilot’s entire flying career. The pilot must understand and appreciate factors such as airspeed, pitch attitude, load factor, relative wind, power setting, and aircraft configuration in order to develop a reasonably accurate mental picture of the wing’s angle of attack at any particular time. It is essential to flight safety that a pilot take into consideration this visualization of the wing’s angle of attack prior to entering any flight maneuver." (AFH pg 1-6 under "Stall Awareness"; italics mine)

So, you can "understand and appreciate factors such as airspeed, pitch attitude, load factor, relative wind, power setting, and aircraft configuration in order to develop a reasonably accurate mental picture of the wing’s angle of attack", or, you can just use an AOA indicator. On my best days I may be smart enough to juggle all those factors and possibly understand them, but to ask me to also appreciate them is just too much.
...and then to ask me to visualize and develop a reasonably accurate mental picture of the wing's angle of attack prior to entering any flight maneuver? I don't have that many brain cells anymore. I'll take the AOA gauge.

I completely agree with the FAA AFH quote.


When many students start instrument training, the idea of "understanding" all of those gauges and getting the scan down is difficult. Then it becomes pretty much automatic, and I hand-fly IFR while doing multiple other tasks without thinking about it. It is the same with the visualization of wing loading, AOA and power for a GA craft. Those that simply refer to the "AOA gauge" are at risk of losing, or never developing, the skills that the AFH refers to.

Again to clarify my consistent position, I would find an AOA gauge somewhat interesting, and would not object to it on a new plane. I'm simply not naiive enough to think this will affect accident rates, or will be of general utility outside of training. We already have an "aural emergency AOA indicator." I never use it unless I am three inches above the ground. ;)

No, my argument is more "I don't need cod liver oil because it is not needed." Gradually moms across the country also realized that cod liver oil can be good for some people, but don't have to shove it down the throats of otherwise healthy individuals. Do you force your kids to take cod liver oil?

Again for somebody that does not fly GA, you seem to sure know what is best for GA. It is a different type of flying from two person crewed operations in a high performance turbine. Air is thick down here, speeds are slower, and wings have a lot of lift. The pilot gets direct control feedback (try that in an Airbus ;) ) How is a GA pilot going to benefit from knowing "exactly when a stall is broken" if he can't feel it on his own?

An additional gauge is simply not needed and would not add safety beyond the emergency warning AOA gauge, already installed in most systems.

“Feeling” when a stall is broken? Equivocal statement, please clarify.
In the mean time, feel free to post your clinical experience with narcissistic personality disorder on JAMA.net. It’s kind of like Airline Pilot Central, except it’s for doctors.

Sure doc whatever you say. It takes a bit man to know he lost an argument and admit he's wrong.

Doc, consistency is not always a virtue.

The USAF put an AOA gauge on the T-38 to stop it from killing students and their instructors. You don't have to visualize anything, you just associate cues (buffet, stick position, KIAS, etc.) to an accurate indication of AOA instead of associating those cues to some ignorant hallucination of what you visualize AOA to be. Sure, the T-38 is a pretty extreme example, as most pilots with less than 100 hrs won't be piloting them, but in military training that's the program. Having that AOA gauge reduced the fireballs in the traffic pattern to a reasonable number in short order (here's the study: www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD0757243 )

I really don't care to visualize all that crap the AFH talks about. I think that statement is wishful thinking by someone who should know better. I'd rather have an AOA guage to KNOW my angle of attack, a g-meter to KNOW my load factor, and an airspeed indicator to KNOW my KIAS (kinetic energy). I can fly better and with less effort if I have those indicators (and if I've used them and then you take them away I probably have a more accurate feel for the plane than if I never had them in the first place).

Tell me, would you rather have test results to look at, or would you just look at the patient and VISUALIZE what's wrong with them? Would you find it naive to think a blood test could help with accurate diagnosis? I'm sure you also visualize, as do pilots, but don't professionals prefer to use the most objective indicators?

The vast majority of GA pilots will never step anywhere near a T38 and that type of airfoil. Yes, AOA may be useful in that type, and as we discussed it is essential in airliners up in thin air.

I think that is where the disconnect lies. The posters here are truly unfamiliar with the way that GA pilots, airfoils, and operations take place, and want to force your way of flying / thinking onto them. This is why my experiences are similar to expert GA pilots, not freight dogs or jet jocks. Unless you are pulling G's in the pattern, ASI give appropriate info and safety margin. If you are pulling G's in the patten or don't have a good feel for the airplane, then IMO you have bigger problems.

Perhaps a better analogy would be is it worth hooking a patient up to a costly and redundant instrument "just in case" when identical information is available via other means? Just in case the surgeon is reckless and decides to hot dog during the case instead of remaining with good margins of safety, as he has done countless times without a single incident?

I'd say judge by the scoreboard, not naiive idealism. I don't fly my 182 anywhere near the edges of the envelope (without intentionally doing so), and an AOA gauge would not help my type of flying. After the initial fun factor I'd rarely even look at it.

If you need one in your GA plane, go ahead and install one! I never stop anybody from improving their own safety, but don't legislate for others. My "position" remains unchanged! :)

Your right Doc.

I just re-read by Birth Certificate and at the top is;

Record of Live Birth Child/Pilot
https://youtu.be/MjoMQJf5vKI

Perfect.
Cardio…HR721: Managed Health Care Record Keeping Reduction Act; C-182 Angle of Attack Indicator Retrofit Exemption. Papa Mike me your contribution info and I’ll make sure it gets into the right hands.

Doc, that's an erroneous assumption: just because you aren't familiar with military aviation doesn't mean the posters here aren't familiar with GA.
Maybe an AOA gauge wouldn't have been a "costly and redundant instrument" for this Mooney pilot at a critical instance: https://vimeo.com/26640491
I'm sure he should have been better at visualizing the rapidly changing AOA as his thrust suddenly decreased to a negative value and increased AOA, his AOA increased due to bank and increased back pressure, and of course we can flog him for attempting to turn back in the first place. I'm sure his experiences weren't similar to yours or other GA experts, so he's the guy who actually might benefit from using this gauge in the pattern, especially during an emergency. Here's the rest of the story:
The "Impossible Turn" and Three Mooney Crashes in Two Weeks : Aviation Law Monitor

The first part of your statement that I quoted is pure presumption (sprinkled with what comes across as some arrogance, as well). Many, many folks on here also fly GA. Me, for one, who you've dismissed in the past. I've flown (and still fly) GA, airliners, and military fighters. With that broad experience, one would hope you would listen to those who are vastly more experienced than yourself.

The second part of your statement that I quoted shows an ignorance of the safety statistics. What's the number one cause of GA accidents? Isn't it loss of control? And how often do airliners fly anywhere near the edge of the envelope? And yet, many airliners have AOA!

So, addition of AOA (according to the FAA, NTSB, AOPA, and pretty much everyone who knows about aeronautics, pilots and flying) will decrease GA accidents--not solve all loss of control incidents, but they will definitely decrease. Maybe not for some certain pilots, however ...

You don't think his stall horn was blaring? You actually think that somehow another instrument other than the low ASI, telling him the same thing while he yanks back on the yoke, would have made the difference?

I'm serious - I just don't think somebody who is going to act like this, (yes, he was startled, but that is why you mentally rehearse these things always) is going to benefit from another gauge telling him what he should already know. That's why Chuck Yeager, Dick Collins, and I feel this way. Perhaps envelope protection system may have helped, but those are still pretty rare in GA fleet. Training? Experience? Yes, both would likely help.

Unclear, and likely not true. We'll see the result, and I would be very interested in the data. I'll even happily admit I'm wrong if there is a clear trend, but I'd wager more than a few beers that I'm not wrong.

So, a freight pilot was arguing here that remembered "very little" about GA. The posts here reflect a very deep ignorance of the styles of GA flying and airfoils.

What do you fly in GA, F15? If you want to play that game, I'll bet I currently fly more GA hours than you if you still fly mil (would be very difficult for any reasonably active pro pilot to fly more than me and still have appropriate rest hours.)

I fly a circuit for business that keeps me in the air a great deal for the next few years. I carefully plan, I go commercial when thunderstorms or icing prohibit me, and I feel very current and confident in my abilities. Arrogance? Nope. Confidence? You betcha.

But, this is not the important metric, it is knowledge, which many of the posts here are severely lacking. We had some guy arguing that GA pilots are "closer to the edge of the envelope" than transport jets. :rolleyes: Yet, while arguing nonsense, he somehow knows more about aerodynamics than an MIT-trained engineer who studied fluid mechanics and aerodynamics. Flying is hard for a lot of people, and they can and should feel proud of their accomplishments, but there is a whole other world out there. Posters need to pick up a book instead of thumping their chest.

But hey, it's the internet.

Maybe you can install some $4000 aftermarket AOA gauge on the GA planes you fly to keep yourself safe. Again, I'm not going to argue for people who may need this, and if it makes you feel you are a safer pilot, by all means do it. Best of luck to you!

Flugleher, don't forget this classic example which was used for FAA FAAST demos, if you haven't seen it already (jump to the end for the crash):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzDSq6m2zV4

High density altitude contributing. The high AOA audio alert indicator did its job. Abusive control inputs, and the plane did what physics dictated. :(

Appears he was reducing back pressure at the stall warning and then immediately (and excessively) increasing it, or possibly he never reduced back pressure and the plane was just oscillating in the stall. Either way I'm not sure this supports your position. Training with an AOA indicator may have helped him understand how to max perform his aircraft without exceeding the critical angle, and may even have helped him predict the limits of what he could do with his flightpath so he could choose an earlier/better alternative path. The stall warning is just an on/off indicator, while the AOA gauge can give a progressive indication of AOA. This pilot's decision to continue up the mountain severely limited his options and put him in a square corner. If any gauge could have helped him at the end game, it would have been an AOA.