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-   -   Not understanding AoA indicators... (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/84956-not-understanding-aoa-indicators.html)

cardiomd 11-20-2014 02:37 PM


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1767572)
:) Well this is a clear indication that you don't understand AOA. It wouldn't be useful IN THE SPIN, it would be useful on RECOVERY.

Oooh-kay.

Perhaps if one wants to pull out on the verge of an accelerated stall, but airspeed + G meter would be more tight on the scan plus looking outside. Most aerobats know about it, could use it, and the planes I've flown are still not retrofit. Maybe I could put a bit of yarn on the side of the fuselage, glider-style. :p


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1767572)
And I am the same on you constant negativism about a system that you clearly don't seem to understand.

There you go again.
Ronald Reagan:There You Go Again - YouTube

Stop with the "you just don't understand" and provide a convincing scenario or argument for the implentation.

I'm not negative about AOA at all, and I understand it well. I'm just not a fanatic about proselytizing its use for all GA aircraft. It is bordering on crazytown.


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1767572)
Otherwise - I will gladly agree to disagree with you on this issue and we'll go our own ways.

I still don't see exactly how you will think it is used on a routine GA flight, or how you estimate the advantages outweigh the costs of install that others have pointed out. The last thing a pilot needs is another gauge that sits there in the green arc, as rickair and I pointed out, I already know I'm within the envelope.

We are not fighter pilots on verge of accelerated stalls, nor airliners near the coffin corner.

I get the feeling you're arguing something just because you feel you have to be on "team AOA!!!" and hence your repeated misrepresentation of my position.

Adlerdriver 11-20-2014 04:44 PM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1767602)
Oooh-kay.

Perhaps if one wants to pull out on the verge of an accelerated stall, but airspeed + G meter would be more tight on the scan plus looking outside.

Wouldn't an AOA gauge help in an actual low altitude stall/spin scenario where pulling out on the verge of an accelerated stall may be the only option to avoid the rocks? ("on the verge" being the operative phrase)


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1767602)
I still don't see exactly how you will think it is used on a routine GA flight, or how you estimate the advantages outweigh the costs of install that others have pointed out. The last thing a pilot needs is another gauge that sits there in the green arc, as rickair and I pointed out, I already know I'm within the envelope.

It seems unlikely that it would NEED to be used on a routine GA flight. Perhaps the pilot may prefer to fly AOA or combine it with IAS in his cross-check, once he became familiar.

In the training environment, it's likely that it wouldn't just "sit there in the green arc". Don't you think it would be a great training aid to provide new pilots a better understanding of the whole concept? (especially an accelerated stall)

FDXLAG 11-21-2014 04:10 AM

If I remember my spin training AOA breaking would be the first indication that you have broken the stall, isn't that a good thing? The AOA guage is simply a visual cue to confirm your tactile feel.

What cardio is arguing is a chicken and the egg, he doesn't think they are useful because no one is trained on them. No one is trained on them because they aren't widely available. I am sure Wilbur and Orville had a similar discussion on the benefit of a slip indictor. What do I need that string for? That is essentially what AOA is is a slip indicator in another axis.

RhinoPherret 11-21-2014 05:52 AM


Originally Posted by Cubdriver (Post 1767597)
Everybody irked => thread complete! :) LOL! That is the standard SOP.

Seriously, flying has a thinking side to it that AoA represents an essential part of and as a subject matter it is both fascinating and rewarding. The theory runs deep on this, well into high college level courses like low and high speed aerodynamics, aeroelasticity, aircraft design and optimization, hydrodynamics, flight dynamics, simulator design, computer flight modeling, model aircraft, glider and helicopter design, engine design, aerobatic and military flight, so many high level topics. To put one small instrument in the cockpit is not asking much if you are aware of how many things are dependent on it. It may not be required to watch AoA in some aircraft, but it matters in all aircraft whether the pilot thinks about what's going on or doesn't.

My two cents worth and to the quick (being that AOA was beat into and ingrained in me): It adds important adjutant information (as long as you get proper training and understand its purpose) in helping to avoid stalls. I feel GA pilots can benefit greatly in the proper use of this indicator in order to cut down on the over abundant and seemingly inevitable stalls that result from losing control inflight. It never affected my instrument scan etc.

Timbo 11-21-2014 07:36 AM

As all 4 of my children have proven many times, any 6 year old can fly an airplane straight and level at cruise. It's when you slow down and start turning that it gets interesting.

That happens mostly on approach and landing, but also on a turning departure, which is also where most accidents happen. That's exactly where I've found the AOA most useful.

In a light airplane that has an AOA, I almost never even look at the airspeed when turning base and final, I'm looking at my aim point on the runway, looking for traffic on long final (uncontrolled airport) and I'm cross checking the AOA as I slow and configure.

In a light G/A aircraft (any single engine prop) you can pretty much feel when you are getting too slow/too high AOA, as the elevator gets heavier in the turn.

I once delivered a Piper Cub from PA to FL with no airspeed indicator, due to water in the system. 6 landings with no airspeed indication, but in a Cub, the AOA indicator is the open door, when it lifts up, you need to unload it!

It's the larger/heavier jets with no real feedback through the flight control system that can benefit most with an AOA. I don't know how you guys were first taught to fly, but my IP never mentioned airspeed in my early lessons, he mentioned "Feel", as in, "Feel that? It's sinking!"

When I go out in a new (to me) airplane, one that I've never flown before, usually solo, I fist go out and practice slow flight. Not all the way to a full stall, but just close enough to get the feel of it when it's slow.

Once you develop the feel, you really don't need an airspeed indicator for pattern work. You'd be much better off to keep your eyes outside, looking for traffic if you are at an uncontrolled field on any weekend!

Yoda2 11-21-2014 08:44 AM

I agree with your post Timbo. I learned to fly the same way. I have also flown/delivered a few airplanes without airspeed indication. Unfortunately not enough folks learn to fly that way anymore. I FEEL... this might be a sizeable component of the current LOC issue. I am now in favor of the AOA use in general aviation and especially as a training aid. Though it will also better prepare those who go forth to fly aircraft where it's use would be more beneficial or even considered imperative.

cardiomd 11-21-2014 06:44 PM

Having a good feel for the plane prevents you from doing all sorts of horrible things and is essential for good VFR flying. In fact I would say that is the one thing that makes you from a standard pilot to a great, safe pilot.

How is AOA better than ASI for routine non-accelerated/non-high G and non high-altitude flight? It's not. Essentially same information.

Everybody wants to have the next whiz-bang stall/spin protection device. In a few years some will say synthetic vision is required to prevent CFIT. I understand and recognize its use but I don't need it now.

Here is a typical stall/spin accident from a few months ago, unfortunately fatal. Look at the attitude, power, airspeed (AOA surrogate) during the entire event.

PLANE CRASH FROM INSIDE COCKPIT

Money retrofitting planes with AOA trinkets would be better spent on instilling better basic airmanship for most GA guys. The two pilots did a lot of obvious things wrong, and having yet another gauge screaming at them would be unlikely to prevent the incident.

FDXLAG 11-21-2014 07:16 PM

You win we are all idiots and bow to your superior knowledge about airmanship and training.

No one is saying make it mandatory, they are saying it is a very useful instrument and can help train ham fists to recognize when the wing is operating efficiently and when it is not.

When operating a high performance aircraft on the edge of its performance envelope you do not look at the AOA indicator. You do however spend time before that training to know what the aircraft feels like at particular AOA settings.

JamesNoBrakes 11-21-2014 08:43 PM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 1768466)
How is AOA better than ASI for routine non-accelerated/non-high G and non high-altitude flight? It's not. Essentially same information.

Turns are accelerations.

cardiomd 11-22-2014 04:31 AM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1768485)
You win we are all idiots and bow to your superior knowledge about airmanship and training.

Aw, somebody needs a hug! :o


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1768485)
No one is saying make it mandatory

Some pilots still wish they had it in all planes they fly. I'm trying to understand why they feel that way.


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1763194)
I can tell you though that I wish I had an AoA gauge in every aircraft I fly - and if I owned (especially at today's costs) it would be one of the first things I'd have in my plane - - sort of like that tornado shelter I put in my house! :D


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1768485)
they are saying it is a very useful instrument and can help train ham fists to recognize when the wing is operating efficiently and when it is not.

If somebody feels like they need it, sure. However, rather than trying to retrofit the 1980's trainers that most people still learn to fly on, studying a diagram and understanding the concepts of AOA, wing loading, relation to speeds, etc would likely yield better results.

http://turbineair.com/wp-content/upl...speed-2013.pdf

I don't care, if any of you want to spend the money and put in an AOA gauge in your plane go right ahead. I'm just trying to have a civil discussion to make sure that you and I are making good decisions.


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1768485)
When operating a high performance aircraft on the edge of its performance envelope you do not look at the AOA indicator. You do however spend time before that training to know what the aircraft feels like at particular AOA settings.

Sure, of course. We all did that. That is why every checkout on a plane I've done has include lots of slow flight and stalls. Gotta learn how that wing talks to you as the airflow goes turbulent.


Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes (Post 1768540)
Turns are accelerations.

I'm simply saying that understanding the relation of AOA, wing loading, turning, and G forces is essential. A descending high bank power-off short approach can be at low AOA and yet a relatively sharp / quick turn with lots of lift reserve. Similarly the turn that that Russian pilot attempted at high pitch, low speed, high AOA, resulted in a spin.

Would AOA gauge be a useful addition for training? Sure. Understanding AOA can be accomplished without this and these are pretty fundamental concepts.


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