F-16 and single piston collide
#22
I'm not computer literate enough - but somewhere there is a GIF (or something of the sort) of the *double facepalming* with Captain Jean-luc Picard and Number 1 that would be most appropriate here!
"Look down-Shoot down" - verbiage from the late 70s is key here.
Not even spies trolling for information are so.........out of their depth.
Do the -16s even shoot TACAN approaches?
#23
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You and I have some very different definitions of nose-up...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXKaaGyc8Q0
The AOA on those is huge, which is why they fly the AOA meter, short stubby wings and all. I don't doubt you that the visibility is excellent but can't see through the aircraft. Cessna with full flaps is very heavily nose down on approach, conversely would have terrible forward viz as you note during the climbout.
I agree. VMC = heads up but we're all guilty a bit of this. As soon as I switch from approach try my be extremely vigilant. As you said there are a lot of blind spots in a cessna, particularly anything other than straight ahead and slightly upward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXKaaGyc8Q0
The AOA on those is huge, which is why they fly the AOA meter, short stubby wings and all. I don't doubt you that the visibility is excellent but can't see through the aircraft. Cessna with full flaps is very heavily nose down on approach, conversely would have terrible forward viz as you note during the climbout.
I agree. VMC = heads up but we're all guilty a bit of this. As soon as I switch from approach try my be extremely vigilant. As you said there are a lot of blind spots in a cessna, particularly anything other than straight ahead and slightly upward.
#24
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Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 5
You should attend the SSWG (that would be Safety Systems Working Group) and state your case. It has only been in the Top 10 (usually in the Top 5) safety concerns - the need for a precision approach capability other than PAR - for the last 10 years I was involved and I retired in 2010.
I'm not computer literate enough - but somewhere there is a GIF (or something of the sort) of the *double facepalming* with Captain Jean-luc Picard and Number 1 that would be most appropriate here!
"Look down-Shoot down" - verbiage from the late 70s is key here.
Not even spies trolling for information are so.........out of their depth.
Do the -16s even shoot TACAN approaches?
I'm not computer literate enough - but somewhere there is a GIF (or something of the sort) of the *double facepalming* with Captain Jean-luc Picard and Number 1 that would be most appropriate here!
"Look down-Shoot down" - verbiage from the late 70s is key here.
Not even spies trolling for information are so.........out of their depth.
Do the -16s even shoot TACAN approaches?
I suppoes the you're right about the spies, but times are tough their intel folks may have had to downsize and outsource....
As for the approaches, why yes -16's do still shoot tacan approaches
There is a low level that is near there but enough speculation, sad day for the Viper/GA community
#25
I suppoes the you're right about the spies, but times are tough their intel folks may have had to downsize and outsource....
As for the approaches, why yes -16's do still shoot tacan approaches
There is a low level that is near there but enough speculation, sad day for the Viper/GA community
As for the approaches, why yes -16's do still shoot tacan approaches
There is a low level that is near there but enough speculation, sad day for the Viper/GA community
CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k
Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
#26
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When they would come visit us at MCAS Beaufort or Iwakuni - they treated it like an emergency - not having an ILS approach available
CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k
Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k
Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
I said they do, not that they like it!
#27
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: IPZ to Mr.
Posts: 1,915
Other reports say he was flying IR-018, a MTR low level in which he'd be under IFR conrol with ATC while flying.
#28
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The term, "look-down, shoot-down" indicates that it has a doppler filter connected to an inertial nav system that has the capability to filter out raw radar returns from the ground. Most AI radars made after the 1970s have this capability.
It does not mean that it has a magical ability to pick out all radar reflective targets clearly against a ground clutter background.
#29
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Seat: Vegan friendly faux leather
Posts: 974
When they would come visit us at MCAS Beaufort or Iwakuni - they treated it like an emergency - not having an ILS approach available
CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k
Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k
Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
Not sure what you are arguing - going back to aerodynamics looking at a CL curve for a high performance jet is significantly flatter than the big peaked CL for a Cessna (Cirrus would be somewhere in between). Similarly the Cd would have a large increase for a Cessna, moderate for a jet.
My non-induced drag (e.g. form drag) would become extremely large at higher speeds while yours would remain low and your speed would build.
Thus on a Cessna approach lift builds extremely rapidly with increased AOA, drag keeps airspeed low, so the equilibrium point with minimal power at initial approach speeds (say 90-100 kts) is extremely low AOA during approach. With a slip on final Cessna is even further many degrees nose low, pointed toward the ground. We are usually on front side.
The Cessna approaches are at low AOA, often nose-down in attitude. Go back and fly in a 172 with 30 or 40 degrees, they are generally significantly nose-down on final, and the F18/F16 is clearly nose up. Cessna airfoil large lift reserve adds to safety, which is why GA low performance airfoils generally do not need AOA indicators. You guys spend more time "behind the curve" with high induced drag to work that airfoil to get the lift to fly slowly. Compare this to the Hornet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEbmeOjG8PQ
#30
When they would come visit us at MCAS Beaufort or Iwakuni - they treated it like an emergency - not having an ILS approach available
CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k
Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k
Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
8.1 looks about right for the F-16 as it sits similar to the 757 in flaps 25 config or the little bus in flaps 3 config. (that is around 7.5 AOA)
We don't have look down shoot down.