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F-16 and single piston collide

Old 07-07-2015, 05:26 PM
  #21  
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Fege is down among the spiders and washer/dryers. There was a duplicate mid air at SRQ a number of years ago.
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:32 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Fegelein View Post
It doesn't need ILS. It has ACLS to land on the boat and can fly Tacan, PAR or ASR approaches to land fields.
You should attend the SSWG (that would be Safety Systems Working Group) and state your case. It has only been in the Top 10 (usually in the Top 5) safety concerns - the need for a precision approach capability other than PAR - for the last 10 years I was involved and I retired in 2010.

I'm not computer literate enough - but somewhere there is a GIF (or something of the sort) of the *double facepalming* with Captain Jean-luc Picard and Number 1 that would be most appropriate here!

"Look down-Shoot down" - verbiage from the late 70s is key here.
Not even spies trolling for information are so.........out of their depth.

Do the -16s even shoot TACAN approaches?
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer View Post
An F-16 at approach speed is NOT very "nose up."
You and I have some very different definitions of nose-up...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXKaaGyc8Q0

The AOA on those is huge, which is why they fly the AOA meter, short stubby wings and all. I don't doubt you that the visibility is excellent but can't see through the aircraft. Cessna with full flaps is very heavily nose down on approach, conversely would have terrible forward viz as you note during the climbout.

Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer View Post
But on an instrument ride, his primary focus would have been inside the jet.
I agree. VMC = heads up but we're all guilty a bit of this. As soon as I switch from approach try my be extremely vigilant. As you said there are a lot of blind spots in a cessna, particularly anything other than straight ahead and slightly upward.
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:40 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
You should attend the SSWG (that would be Safety Systems Working Group) and state your case. It has only been in the Top 10 (usually in the Top 5) safety concerns - the need for a precision approach capability other than PAR - for the last 10 years I was involved and I retired in 2010.

I'm not computer literate enough - but somewhere there is a GIF (or something of the sort) of the *double facepalming* with Captain Jean-luc Picard and Number 1 that would be most appropriate here!

"Look down-Shoot down" - verbiage from the late 70s is key here.
Not even spies trolling for information are so.........out of their depth.

Do the -16s even shoot TACAN approaches?

I suppoes the you're right about the spies, but times are tough their intel folks may have had to downsize and outsource....

As for the approaches, why yes -16's do still shoot tacan approaches

There is a low level that is near there but enough speculation, sad day for the Viper/GA community
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:49 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by TPAW View Post
I suppoes the you're right about the spies, but times are tough their intel folks may have had to downsize and outsource....

As for the approaches, why yes -16's do still shoot tacan approaches

There is a low level that is near there but enough speculation, sad day for the Viper/GA community
When they would come visit us at MCAS Beaufort or Iwakuni - they treated it like an emergency - not having an ILS approach available

CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k

Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:53 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
When they would come visit us at MCAS Beaufort or Iwakuni - they treated it like an emergency - not having an ILS approach available

CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k

Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.

I said they do, not that they like it!
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:45 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox View Post
A Shaw AFB spokesman has already said the F-16 pilot was on an IFR training flight and was talking to ATC. The F-16 was most likely on vectors or on an instrument approach.
You can't draw that conclusion just yet.

Other reports say he was flying IR-018, a MTR low level in which he'd be under IFR conrol with ATC while flying.
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Fegelein View Post
That shouldn't be an issue as the F-16's APG-68 is a "look down, shoot down radar". It can detect targets down low in ground clutter.
Spoken like someone who has never actually operated one.

The term, "look-down, shoot-down" indicates that it has a doppler filter connected to an inertial nav system that has the capability to filter out raw radar returns from the ground. Most AI radars made after the 1970s have this capability.

It does not mean that it has a magical ability to pick out all radar reflective targets clearly against a ground clutter background.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:44 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
When they would come visit us at MCAS Beaufort or Iwakuni - they treated it like an emergency - not having an ILS approach available

CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k

Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
Don't make me break out the integrals and lifting line element theory!

Not sure what you are arguing - going back to aerodynamics looking at a CL curve for a high performance jet is significantly flatter than the big peaked CL for a Cessna (Cirrus would be somewhere in between). Similarly the Cd would have a large increase for a Cessna, moderate for a jet.

My non-induced drag (e.g. form drag) would become extremely large at higher speeds while yours would remain low and your speed would build.

Thus on a Cessna approach lift builds extremely rapidly with increased AOA, drag keeps airspeed low, so the equilibrium point with minimal power at initial approach speeds (say 90-100 kts) is extremely low AOA during approach. With a slip on final Cessna is even further many degrees nose low, pointed toward the ground. We are usually on front side.

The Cessna approaches are at low AOA, often nose-down in attitude. Go back and fly in a 172 with 30 or 40 degrees, they are generally significantly nose-down on final, and the F18/F16 is clearly nose up. Cessna airfoil large lift reserve adds to safety, which is why GA low performance airfoils generally do not need AOA indicators. You guys spend more time "behind the curve" with high induced drag to work that airfoil to get the lift to fly slowly. Compare this to the Hornet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEbmeOjG8PQ
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:40 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
When they would come visit us at MCAS Beaufort or Iwakuni - they treated it like an emergency - not having an ILS approach available

CardioMD - the AoA of a Hornet is 8.1 for an on-speed landing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fke3t2f-9k

Is that "huge" AoA to you?
The Hornet guys are flying AoA/Ball all the way down, but I'm unsure whether the Viper guys are or not - I didn't think so but I never got a ride in one - only flew the sim.
That would be a quite high AOA for a GA pilot that is used to a flat to slightly negative pitch down final.

8.1 looks about right for the F-16 as it sits similar to the 757 in flaps 25 config or the little bus in flaps 3 config. (that is around 7.5 AOA)



We don't have look down shoot down.
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