One last training question
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 167
One last training question
So I’ve gone back and forth over this, but I’m looking for a little bit more input. I had a discovery flight last week with an independent CFI who will charge me 120 hr/wet for training in a cesna 150 along with 40 bucks an hour for her instructing. I’ve figured to get a ppl with her would be around 9k if I knock it out in around 60 hrs. I’d also be paying for an online ground school, and all exam fees, plus or minus a little more. And while I’ve read mom and pop training is better than places like ATP, I have concerns about there being little structure from the training. However, I feel somewhat obligated to give her my business since she did that discovery flight for free.
My other option is to go to a local 141 school in my area for my PPL, pay their package rate of 12k which includes 44hrs of flight time, 130 or so hrs of instruction, ground school, exam books, etc. I’d still also be out exam fees. However, this school is owned and operated by former AF pilots who also train NATO pilots. I’d be training here out of a Grumman AA5, and possibly receive better instruction, but I don’t know that for sure.
After the PPL I will be using my GI bill for all other ratings, so this will mainly be my biggest cost for training. What are your opinions and thoughts?
My other option is to go to a local 141 school in my area for my PPL, pay their package rate of 12k which includes 44hrs of flight time, 130 or so hrs of instruction, ground school, exam books, etc. I’d still also be out exam fees. However, this school is owned and operated by former AF pilots who also train NATO pilots. I’d be training here out of a Grumman AA5, and possibly receive better instruction, but I don’t know that for sure.
After the PPL I will be using my GI bill for all other ratings, so this will mainly be my biggest cost for training. What are your opinions and thoughts?
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2021
Posts: 212
A few thoughts:
141 vs 61 - doesn't matter, you will have the same PPL at the end of the day. And it doesn't sound like you're positioned to get any of the R-ATP benefits (as you have to do your training through a University program).
141 is more structured. 61 is less structured. Which do you like? You will take the same check ride at the end of the day.
The biggest differentiator is probably how quickly you want to train. Typically, a 141 school has more airplanes and more instructors, along with AATD/Sim devices, that will allow you to progress more quickly. Your local independent 61 teacher usually has 1 airplane and when it's down for mx or the weather sucks for a week, or they go on vacation you lose that week.
141 vs 61 - doesn't matter, you will have the same PPL at the end of the day. And it doesn't sound like you're positioned to get any of the R-ATP benefits (as you have to do your training through a University program).
141 is more structured. 61 is less structured. Which do you like? You will take the same check ride at the end of the day.
The biggest differentiator is probably how quickly you want to train. Typically, a 141 school has more airplanes and more instructors, along with AATD/Sim devices, that will allow you to progress more quickly. Your local independent 61 teacher usually has 1 airplane and when it's down for mx or the weather sucks for a week, or they go on vacation you lose that week.
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 297
First, don't feel obligated because of a discovery flight, but you may want to go with the independent instructor if they can fly with you a lot.
Second, package deals can be bad, in fact I'd be worried about handing over money in advance. Especially if you have no idea when you'll get an instructor assigned (some have waiting lists) or any guarantees on how often you'll fly, or whether the company will even stay in business. You might also get passed around from instructor to instructor as they get their hours and move on. That single instructor will probably be committed to completing your training. On the other hand, if you go with the independent instructor, you might not have options if you decide you get along (though you can probably switch to the big school if it isn't working out)
Either an independent instructor or a school can be a good option under the right conditions. You need to know:
-Is there a waiting list/when will I get an instructor?
-How many times a week am I guaranteed to fly? (The more the better, 3-5x week if you can)
-How many airplanes do you have/airplane availability? How much downtime do they normally have?
-How many students are assigned per instructor (if workload is too high, you may get substandard training)?
-What is your instructor turnover rate/How long will you be instructing before you leave for a better job?
-What times and days are you available to train me/does it line up with my schedule?
You may not be able to ask these questions directly (or they may not answer directly), but if you can talk to a current student or get a reference these questions are very important.
Second, package deals can be bad, in fact I'd be worried about handing over money in advance. Especially if you have no idea when you'll get an instructor assigned (some have waiting lists) or any guarantees on how often you'll fly, or whether the company will even stay in business. You might also get passed around from instructor to instructor as they get their hours and move on. That single instructor will probably be committed to completing your training. On the other hand, if you go with the independent instructor, you might not have options if you decide you get along (though you can probably switch to the big school if it isn't working out)
Either an independent instructor or a school can be a good option under the right conditions. You need to know:
-Is there a waiting list/when will I get an instructor?
-How many times a week am I guaranteed to fly? (The more the better, 3-5x week if you can)
-How many airplanes do you have/airplane availability? How much downtime do they normally have?
-How many students are assigned per instructor (if workload is too high, you may get substandard training)?
-What is your instructor turnover rate/How long will you be instructing before you leave for a better job?
-What times and days are you available to train me/does it line up with my schedule?
You may not be able to ask these questions directly (or they may not answer directly), but if you can talk to a current student or get a reference these questions are very important.
Last edited by FlyinCat; 01-14-2022 at 11:51 AM.
#4
Ask 10 people this question and you'll get 10 answers. It's difficult to know what you're getting into and how it will play out when you first start - which is why everyone has the same question you just asked. It's the old saying, "you don't know what you don't know". Either route can work just fine and some of the key variables have already been pointed out. Earning your first certificate is the most challenging because you don't know what it takes to pass a checkride. From there on, you have a pretty good idea on what to expect. So here's my opinion that you asked for. Flying is flying - you can either do it or not on the day of the checkride. The oral portion, that you need to pass first, is always a much more challenging hurdle. But this is also where YOU can do a lot to better your chance of success and for minimal cost or even for free. Read, Read, Read. Lots of books out there to help prep you and a million YouTubers out there as well - some better than others, YMMV.
I bounced around different flight schools, flying clubs, independent instructors, etc - all part 61. Some felt like a good fit, others felt like they were stealing my money. Some had zero structure, some had a good syllabus. I spent several years flying for fun part time while gaining my certificates. I'm not sure if I spent more or less money than someone who paid a big name school to have it all done in 18 months or less but I do have zero debt from it. Debt management is important when you're just getting started and throwing out those first applications.
I bounced around different flight schools, flying clubs, independent instructors, etc - all part 61. Some felt like a good fit, others felt like they were stealing my money. Some had zero structure, some had a good syllabus. I spent several years flying for fun part time while gaining my certificates. I'm not sure if I spent more or less money than someone who paid a big name school to have it all done in 18 months or less but I do have zero debt from it. Debt management is important when you're just getting started and throwing out those first applications.
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 167
Ask 10 people this question and you'll get 10 answers. It's difficult to know what you're getting into and how it will play out when you first start - which is why everyone has the same question you just asked. It's the old saying, "you don't know what you don't know". Either route can work just fine and some of the key variables have already been pointed out. Earning your first certificate is the most challenging because you don't know what it takes to pass a checkride. From there on, you have a pretty good idea on what to expect. So here's my opinion that you asked for. Flying is flying - you can either do it or not on the day of the checkride. The oral portion, that you need to pass first, is always a much more challenging hurdle. But this is also where YOU can do a lot to better your chance of success and for minimal cost or even for free. Read, Read, Read. Lots of books out there to help prep you and a million YouTubers out there as well - some better than others, YMMV.
I bounced around different flight schools, flying clubs, independent instructors, etc - all part 61. Some felt like a good fit, others felt like they were stealing my money. Some had zero structure, some had a good syllabus. I spent several years flying for fun part time while gaining my certificates. I'm not sure if I spent more or less money than someone who paid a big name school to have it all done in 18 months or less but I do have zero debt from it. Debt management is important when you're just getting started and throwing out those first applications.
I bounced around different flight schools, flying clubs, independent instructors, etc - all part 61. Some felt like a good fit, others felt like they were stealing my money. Some had zero structure, some had a good syllabus. I spent several years flying for fun part time while gaining my certificates. I'm not sure if I spent more or less money than someone who paid a big name school to have it all done in 18 months or less but I do have zero debt from it. Debt management is important when you're just getting started and throwing out those first applications.
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 167
First, don't feel obligated because of a discovery flight, but you may want to go with the independent instructor if they can fly with you a lot.
Second, package deals can be bad, in fact I'd be worried about handing over money in advance. Especially if you have no idea when you'll get an instructor assigned (some have waiting lists) or any guarantees on how often you'll fly, or whether the company will even stay in business. You might also get passed around from instructor to instructor as they get their hours and move on. That single instructor will probably be committed to completing your training. On the other hand, if you go with the independent instructor, you might not have options if you decide you get along (though you can probably switch to the big school if it isn't working out)
Either an independent instructor or a school can be a good option under the right conditions. You need to know:
-Is there a waiting list/when will I get an instructor?
-How many times a week am I guaranteed to fly? (The more the better, 3-5x week if you can)
-How many airplanes do you have/airplane availability? How much downtime do they normally have?
-How many students are assigned per instructor (if workload is too high, you may get substandard training)?
-What is your instructor turnover rate/How long will you be instructing before you leave for a better job?
-What times and days are you available to train me/does it line up with my schedule?
You may not be able to ask these questions directly (or they may not answer directly), but if you can talk to a current student or get a reference these questions are very important.
Second, package deals can be bad, in fact I'd be worried about handing over money in advance. Especially if you have no idea when you'll get an instructor assigned (some have waiting lists) or any guarantees on how often you'll fly, or whether the company will even stay in business. You might also get passed around from instructor to instructor as they get their hours and move on. That single instructor will probably be committed to completing your training. On the other hand, if you go with the independent instructor, you might not have options if you decide you get along (though you can probably switch to the big school if it isn't working out)
Either an independent instructor or a school can be a good option under the right conditions. You need to know:
-Is there a waiting list/when will I get an instructor?
-How many times a week am I guaranteed to fly? (The more the better, 3-5x week if you can)
-How many airplanes do you have/airplane availability? How much downtime do they normally have?
-How many students are assigned per instructor (if workload is too high, you may get substandard training)?
-What is your instructor turnover rate/How long will you be instructing before you leave for a better job?
-What times and days are you available to train me/does it line up with my schedule?
You may not be able to ask these questions directly (or they may not answer directly), but if you can talk to a current student or get a reference these questions are very important.
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 167
A few thoughts:
141 vs 61 - doesn't matter, you will have the same PPL at the end of the day. And it doesn't sound like you're positioned to get any of the R-ATP benefits (as you have to do your training through a University program).
141 is more structured. 61 is less structured. Which do you like? You will take the same check ride at the end of the day.
The biggest differentiator is probably how quickly you want to train. Typically, a 141 school has more airplanes and more instructors, along with AATD/Sim devices, that will allow you to progress more quickly. Your local independent 61 teacher usually has 1 airplane and when it's down for mx or the weather sucks for a week, or they go on vacation you lose that week.
141 vs 61 - doesn't matter, you will have the same PPL at the end of the day. And it doesn't sound like you're positioned to get any of the R-ATP benefits (as you have to do your training through a University program).
141 is more structured. 61 is less structured. Which do you like? You will take the same check ride at the end of the day.
The biggest differentiator is probably how quickly you want to train. Typically, a 141 school has more airplanes and more instructors, along with AATD/Sim devices, that will allow you to progress more quickly. Your local independent 61 teacher usually has 1 airplane and when it's down for mx or the weather sucks for a week, or they go on vacation you lose that week.
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Posts: 307
Know that the block package isn’t going to get you to checkride.
Finishing in 44 hours is rare. Most people require around 65 hours… so you’re only approximately 2/3 of the way there when you exhaust the prepurchases flight time
Finishing in 44 hours is rare. Most people require around 65 hours… so you’re only approximately 2/3 of the way there when you exhaust the prepurchases flight time
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 167
This is why I think the independent Cfi might be cheaper and maybe better for me in the long run, just so much to think about. The block package training would be in a Grumman AA5 at 180 an hour and 60 with a CFI as compared to 120 for a cesna 150 and 45 the cfi time. Just in that alone I’d save almost 4k if I need an instructor for every single hour flown past the 44. Just a lot to process for someone who doesn’t really know anyone else in the aviation industry to ask besides you guys.
#10
So I’ve gone back and forth over this, but I’m looking for a little bit more input. I had a discovery flight last week with an independent CFI who will charge me 120 hr/wet for training in a cesna 150 along with 40 bucks an hour for her instructing. I’ve figured to get a ppl with her would be around 9k if I knock it out in around 60 hrs. I’d also be paying for an online ground school, and all exam fees, plus or minus a little more. And while I’ve read mom and pop training is better than places like ATP, I have concerns about there being little structure from the training. However, I feel somewhat obligated to give her my business since she did that discovery flight for free.
My other option is to go to a local 141 school in my area for my PPL, pay their package rate of 12k which includes 44hrs of flight time, 130 or so hrs of instruction, ground school, exam books, etc. I’d still also be out exam fees. However, this school is owned and operated by former AF pilots who also train NATO pilots. I’d be training here out of a Grumman AA5, and possibly receive better instruction, but I don’t know that for sure.
After the PPL I will be using my GI bill for all other ratings, so this will mainly be my biggest cost for training. What are your opinions and thoughts?
My other option is to go to a local 141 school in my area for my PPL, pay their package rate of 12k which includes 44hrs of flight time, 130 or so hrs of instruction, ground school, exam books, etc. I’d still also be out exam fees. However, this school is owned and operated by former AF pilots who also train NATO pilots. I’d be training here out of a Grumman AA5, and possibly receive better instruction, but I don’t know that for sure.
After the PPL I will be using my GI bill for all other ratings, so this will mainly be my biggest cost for training. What are your opinions and thoughts?
The problem if you do it at a place that doesn't hold you to the standards is that if you manage to pass, you'll be in for the shock of your life when you go to work any commercial job that actually does hold you to those standards. Those pilots typically do not last long or have to go back to the basics and re-learn everything somehow.
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