cgull

I remember several years ago having a BS session with a bud of mine that is at American (i am at UAL). We were talking about the dismal state of the airline industry and then he made the comment, "I just wish that USAir would hurry up and go away/bankrupt so we can move on".

buzzpat

It's not common knowledge and Scoop is not an RJ pilot. He's mainline and fairly senior.

The Chow

I'm curious; would scoop's point be any less credible if he was an RJ pilot?

Elvis90

I think it has to do more with how much experience he has as an airline pilot, in terms of # of years. Usually RJ captains (not always, just generally) are a younger group then mainline captains.

buzzpat

Just a response to MayDays post to Scoop, that's all.

The Chow

I know I quoted you buzz and should have quoted maydaze, but I was curious why scoop's position made any difference to his comment.

But I dony want to hijack this thread anymore so back to AMR being sold....

Btw: I just saw where AMR is trying to keep the majority of it's fleet, even the super 80's.

Probe

Please all you AMR pilots, please do your homework on the bankruptcy process. I was at UAL during ours, and watched us repeat the same mistakes, EXACTLY, as USAir. Then I watched Delta pilots do the same. I actually heard 2 Delta pilots arguing on an LAX crew bus that "They wouldn't take our pensions, we are Delta. We are different". Do you know how many times I heard that at UAL?

I highly recommend educating yourselves on the section 1113 of the bankruptcy code. Our company "threatened" us with it, and the Union backed them up and said we would be better off with a consensual agreement. 3 consensual agreements later, with a loss of half our pay, all of our A plan, and all of our workrules, we would have been far better off with 1113.

Here is a secret, and please look it up on the internet. Section 1113 was put in the bankruptcy code in, I believe, 1983. It was created to stop companies from filing bankruptcy soley for the purpose of gutting union contracts. It does allow for contract changes, but puts the burden of proof on the company to PROVE that all creditors in bankruptcy are taking a haircut. They cannot simply cut employee pay. And the term limit of these imposed changes is......bankruptcy exit.

Please don't follow our mistakes. Unfortunately, we were not smart enough to take the advice of the USair pilots before us.

Sometimes a job is not worth saving. If USair or UAL would have "burned the house down", right now I would be an 8 year FO at another major airline, making 170 bucks an hour. Instead, we all caved to company and ALPA demands, and now the job is not worth having, at least for me. We brought the whole industry down.

I left over 3 years ago for far greener pastures (Asia contract flying).

gloopy

That is exactly right. Each bottom scraping PWA caused the next one. Sadly, if the APA caves to the fear tactics and lies from the company and gives them whatever they demand (massive scope relief, B scales, etc. in addition to pay cuts and work rules) and emerges as the industry dominant widebody regional airline, that will result in instant pressure on all the other carriers to reduce costs due to the very same fears. At some point (and we are beyond that point) lower than the current bottom just isn't worth it anymore. Call their bluff because they will demand more than they can otherwise get by far. If the other airlines hadn't fallen so far for management lies in BK this past decade, it wouldn't have likely required or resulted in liquidation in the first place either. The pensions are at the very least going to be frozen and despite the thogh talk from the PBGC, dumped. If they are not dumped, the pilots will "pay" to keep them a far greater cost than if they were dumped. PBS will happen if it hasn't already and little featherbedding micro empires like "touch drop" and "buddy bid with LCA's to drop with pay then pick up double time over and above" will be long gone as well.

The company will threaten to gut scope in 1113 but they are powerless to do so and their only hope the pilots swallow the hook on that one is pure fear. They will use the myth of scope gutting to get real scope gutting and we're not just talking "RJ's" either. They will demand massive, earth shattering scope relief at all levels, both directly branded and through code shares, as well as the poorest B scale in the industry by far.

The company's only fear is that someone finally challenges them in their 1113 exageration. They can't gut scope and the other things they demand are either going to happen anyway or they are beyond what the courts would give them in the first place.

Elliot

PURELY a HYPOTHETICAL question? Not looking to flame, or wish ill will on any airline pilot in the industry. (i.e. Not drooling over AA's jobs/network.)

What would happen to the pilots, in the event that AA was pieced up and sold to the "highest bidders"? Say, for example purposes, US Air gets the East Coast network, Delta gets Miami and DFW, United gets ORD, and Alaska gets pieces of the West Coast network. Again, what happens to the pilots?

Do they get transferred with whatever piece is being sold? How does a company decide what part of the pilot group was invested in the intangible pieces of the company sold? (i.e. How do they determine who belongs to the Miami/DFW network and who belongs to the ORD piece?)

I'm assuming that similar instances happened to Pan AM/Eastern, but haven't been around the industry long enough to have experienced those losses of great cultures/companies, so was curious as to the "what happens if" scenario of AA being pieced and sold in parts.

Thanks for honest and constructive replies.

GJ

MayDaze

Jeeze guys, I guess they don't teach sarcasm at Delta recurrent. I was just connoting to the notion that Scoop was implying that Delta would be American's best merger fit... with a little dig at my beloved RJ pilots.