This may have been discussed somewhere else but here we go.

With regards to the ATP Written Exam, and its expiration, many FO's have believed that as long as they are employed by a Part 121 Air Carrier they would be eligible to obtain their ATP rating with an expired ATP Written.

Although the above statement is true, as with all things, the devil lies in the details. Many FO's assumed they would be 'Upgrading to Captain' when they received their ATP Rating. It is this 'Upgrading to Captain' or completing your airline's 'approved upgrade training program' that enables one to negate having to have an ATP Written Examination within the preceding 24 calendar months.

So basically if you have your ATP written done and its expired (or close to being), ..with no upgrade in sight at your airline....you will have to take your ATP written again to get your ATP rating.

Full disclosure i'm all for the new law...heck I've already got my ATP. but it seems to me that if the Feds don't give some leeway on this, they are about to make a lot of money between now and Aug 2013 on the backs of guys/gals who have already paid for and passed this test. Another option would be for the Part 121 Air Carrier to allow FOs to complete the 'approved upgrade training program', however depending on how the CBA is written, this may cause some issues.

Yeah I just found out the details on that myself last night. Luckily it doesn't start until July here for us, and my PC is next month. Now all I have to do is upgrade before July of next year and I should be good...

This is correct. The FAA has issued guidance to the airlines on this, and I suspect some FO's who already got their ATPs with expired writtens will be getting a letter from the FAA.

I don't know if the rules are going to change with the new ATP laws or not, but this is what you guys are looking for...

FAR 61.39.b.1 & 2 (emphasis added by me):

"(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to an airline transport certificate may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved—
(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; and
(ii) Qualification training requirements appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; or

(2) Is employed by the U.S. Armed Forces as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test and has completed the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the pilot certificate and rating sought."


This reg actually allows you to take the ATP practical with an expired written REGARDLESS of how long it's been expired or your current employment history. You could have taken the ATP written & then flipped burgers at McDonald's for the last 10 years, then (provided you meet the other qualifications) go through a 121 or 135 company's approved PIC training program and be allowed you use your old written.

I actually just used this reg myself. I was a Mesaba -> Pinnacle F/O who never got to upgrade. I left a few months ago for a 135 job. They sent me through their approved PIC training program (administered by FlightSafety but developed by the 135 operator & approved by the FAA) & I was allowed to use an expired ATP written, despite the fact that I had taken it about 5 years ago. Now I've got an unrestricted ATP.

Why? Do you think they'd make them take the written after issuing them an ATP? I doubt it.

So how is it that FOs are getting the same qualifications as CAs previously got (an ATP and a PIC type rating)... without doing upgrade training? Are they still required to do orals and such? Or is it really just an annual PC where you get a new license at the end if you pass?

You're right, the FAA has issued guidance on this. Some CMO's are saying that initial qualifies as appropriate training. Rick, check your company mail.

The FAA has already stated they will grandfather any ATPs issued with expired writtens.

At some airlines, Initial and PIC are the same course. If your airline has captains and new-hires in the same class, then all FOs have been through a PIC training class - they just did it in the right seat.

So ... some airlines will have to require their FOs to get a new ATP, others can get around that.

I know here at PSA all First Officers are getting our ATP along with our CL65 type and will be allowed to take it with an expired written.