Pre 9/11 payscales
03-03-2007, 05:51 AM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 318
Short answer - experience
Originally Posted by CE750
You don't think I know that? What do you think I work for a company (Gemini) that pays 1/2 what you get paid to do the same thing (arguable more)?
Short Answer: They're ALPA - I would have never applied to them before they were union, with no chance of improvement. I see possible upside and potential with them now however.
Long Answer:
Their current contract, while poor in some respects (pay... $64/hr 2nd year FO, etc..) was negotiated under BK. There are significant upsides, like Home basing and a liberal overtime policies and time and a half pay (we have $180K/yr CPs that are still getting 12-14 days off a month)
Nevertheless, at the time of our contract, the company was losing money hand over fist, unlike Fedex and UPS. In time, if/when they're profitable, I expect we'll try to bridge the gap between them and Fedex, but this will not happen without a union on the property. That said, we've lost 30+ pilots in the past few months to UPS/Fedex and some others... simply because of the pay issue. Time will tell if GAC ever raises the pay to where it's more reasonable, but clearly the free market is speaking about the value of an MD-11 pilot by the mass migration out of our company.
I'm a new hire, having taken a good bit of time off from flying, I didn't many choices of where to go. I'm thankful for my union contract Job and while I'm at GAC, I'll do my best to make it a great company, and a profitable company that can then pay me what I deserve for the work I do flying all over the world, into 3rd world nations at Airports with minimal facilities on 6 continents.
Short Answer: They're ALPA - I would have never applied to them before they were union, with no chance of improvement. I see possible upside and potential with them now however.
Long Answer:
Their current contract, while poor in some respects (pay... $64/hr 2nd year FO, etc..) was negotiated under BK. There are significant upsides, like Home basing and a liberal overtime policies and time and a half pay (we have $180K/yr CPs that are still getting 12-14 days off a month)
Nevertheless, at the time of our contract, the company was losing money hand over fist, unlike Fedex and UPS. In time, if/when they're profitable, I expect we'll try to bridge the gap between them and Fedex, but this will not happen without a union on the property. That said, we've lost 30+ pilots in the past few months to UPS/Fedex and some others... simply because of the pay issue. Time will tell if GAC ever raises the pay to where it's more reasonable, but clearly the free market is speaking about the value of an MD-11 pilot by the mass migration out of our company.
I'm a new hire, having taken a good bit of time off from flying, I didn't many choices of where to go. I'm thankful for my union contract Job and while I'm at GAC, I'll do my best to make it a great company, and a profitable company that can then pay me what I deserve for the work I do flying all over the world, into 3rd world nations at Airports with minimal facilities on 6 continents.
You have a serious chip on your shoulder my friend. I suggest you lose it because life's too short to be ****ed off at the world. Is it really all about the money? Because that's all I'm getting from you, other than we derserve as much respect as a Doctor.
I'll say it again. This is a great job and profession. I really enjoy my job--is it as much fun and as rewarding as Flying Eagles? Hell No, and it never will be. But hell, I really would have done it for beer money. The reason wages are so low at most places right now is becasue some pilots are willing to fly for penies on the dollar. Period, Dot, End-Of-Statement.
03-03-2007, 06:30 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by JollyF15
So I guess it was just luck of the draw that I got hired by FedEx and you are flying MD-11's at Gemini doing the "same job" making less money? I'm sure that's it. It had nothing to do with 21 years of experience, four year degree in Engineering, a Masters ----Bla Bla Bla. I really don't think you want the entire resume'. I'm sure it was purely an accident that I'm where I am, and you're where you are.
You have a serious chip on your shoulder my friend. I suggest you lose it because life's too short to be ****ed off at the world. Is it really all about the money? Because that's all I'm getting from you, other than we derserve as much respect as a Doctor.
I'll say it again. This is a great job and profession. I really enjoy my job--is it as much fun and as rewarding as Flying Eagles? Hell No, and it never will be. But hell, I really would have done it for beer money. The reason wages are so low at most places right now is becasue some pilots are willing to fly for penies on the dollar. Period, Dot, End-Of-Statement.
You have a serious chip on your shoulder my friend. I suggest you lose it because life's too short to be ****ed off at the world. Is it really all about the money? Because that's all I'm getting from you, other than we derserve as much respect as a Doctor.
I'll say it again. This is a great job and profession. I really enjoy my job--is it as much fun and as rewarding as Flying Eagles? Hell No, and it never will be. But hell, I really would have done it for beer money. The reason wages are so low at most places right now is becasue some pilots are willing to fly for penies on the dollar. Period, Dot, End-Of-Statement.
I suppose you think we should do away with the Seniority system and promotions should be by merit..........(or who you know?)
FedEx is My third airline. At the Time, the 2 previous airlines were "The Place to work"! and I counted myself Lucky there too. Don't be arrogant enough to think things can't go south here.......Positively overnight!
03-03-2007, 07:10 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 318
Where did you get that
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
Don't pat yourself too much on the Back Jolly. You are currently lucky and that degree in Engineering had nothing to do with it, except maybe if you are a "Ring Knocker", which is only worth the contacts you have here at FedEx.
I suppose you think we should do away with the Seniority system and promotions should be by merit..........(or who you know?)
FedEx is My third airline. At the Time, the 2 previous airlines were "The Place to work"! and I counted myself Lucky there too. Don't be arrogant enough to think things can't go south here.......Positively overnight!
I suppose you think we should do away with the Seniority system and promotions should be by merit..........(or who you know?)
FedEx is My third airline. At the Time, the 2 previous airlines were "The Place to work"! and I counted myself Lucky there too. Don't be arrogant enough to think things can't go south here.......Positively overnight!
03-03-2007, 07:38 AM
#84
Bored
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Grumman Torture Device (weekends only)
Posts: 445
My $.02...
1. Doctors have a protected income rate because, a.) they are in demand and b.) they don't work for food. If you want an MD or DO, it costs you $X. Same with plumbers, carpenters, pro athletes (min pay rules), heck, even actors!
2. Pilots will work for food.
Unless ALPA becomes a true trade guild (as in, if you want a pilot with x qualifications and x hours that'll cost you $x) and starts limiting the "professional" pilot gene pool, there is always going to be be downward pressure. If the pilot pay (labor) rate is a given amount, management will do what they need to preserver margins - namely they ALL will have to raise ticket prices. That works great until guys go work for B6 or VA - then your management needs to explain to their board/stockholders how come your labor rates are higher. And, if you go into bankruptcy, you management can go to the judge and say "those guys at B6 are doing this for this much money, THAT is the standard. Our pilots are overcompensated" and bingo! Everyone is working at the new wage scale. Bankruptcy is just a tool to get out of your previous agreements when you see a better deal out there. Just look at Comair.
The long quote about pilots and when they are paid is good info - except, guys are lining up to do it.
As much as you folks disagree with Velocipede - his point is along those lines. If you going to work at a lessor pay rate than everyone else, don't expect a favor. You're hurting the team. If you were working for a trash collection, metro transit or stage labor, for instance, and you went to work at under the guild/union standard pay rate, you'd be collecting disability and walking on crutches in short order and it wouldn't be an issue. Not advocating that here (OK, maybe..) but you should not expect, nor receive "privileges".
I, for one, opted out rather than make $23/hr.
Remember: "one team, one scream"
Spongebob
1. Doctors have a protected income rate because, a.) they are in demand and b.) they don't work for food. If you want an MD or DO, it costs you $X. Same with plumbers, carpenters, pro athletes (min pay rules), heck, even actors!
2. Pilots will work for food.
Unless ALPA becomes a true trade guild (as in, if you want a pilot with x qualifications and x hours that'll cost you $x) and starts limiting the "professional" pilot gene pool, there is always going to be be downward pressure. If the pilot pay (labor) rate is a given amount, management will do what they need to preserver margins - namely they ALL will have to raise ticket prices. That works great until guys go work for B6 or VA - then your management needs to explain to their board/stockholders how come your labor rates are higher. And, if you go into bankruptcy, you management can go to the judge and say "those guys at B6 are doing this for this much money, THAT is the standard. Our pilots are overcompensated" and bingo! Everyone is working at the new wage scale. Bankruptcy is just a tool to get out of your previous agreements when you see a better deal out there. Just look at Comair.
The long quote about pilots and when they are paid is good info - except, guys are lining up to do it.
As much as you folks disagree with Velocipede - his point is along those lines. If you going to work at a lessor pay rate than everyone else, don't expect a favor. You're hurting the team. If you were working for a trash collection, metro transit or stage labor, for instance, and you went to work at under the guild/union standard pay rate, you'd be collecting disability and walking on crutches in short order and it wouldn't be an issue. Not advocating that here (OK, maybe..) but you should not expect, nor receive "privileges".
I, for one, opted out rather than make $23/hr.
Remember: "one team, one scream"
Spongebob
Last edited by Spongebob; 03-03-2007 at 07:46 AM.
03-03-2007, 08:41 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
So...what should my friends getting out of the AF do that are not lucky enough to get called by UPS or Fedex?
Should they NOT accept a postion at B6 or Airtran?
Should they NOT go to Delta or Continental as both are hiring but currently have concessionary contracts?
Please enlighten me as to what these folks should be doing to "strengthen the profession..." as they try to enter this industry.
Should they NOT accept a postion at B6 or Airtran?
Should they NOT go to Delta or Continental as both are hiring but currently have concessionary contracts?
Please enlighten me as to what these folks should be doing to "strengthen the profession..." as they try to enter this industry.
03-03-2007, 10:12 AM
#86
Bored
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Grumman Torture Device (weekends only)
Posts: 445
Well, the horse it out of the barn now, so, it's up to everyone on their own to decide if the millions of dollars of training the gov't spent, the TS clearance, years of leadership experience in a $hithole and occasionally getting shot at are are worth $50k a year on the job market, with poor job security and oil prices shooting up again which will bring another round of wage pressure. Just so you can fly a shiny jet. Or sit on the ramp for 8 hrs to watch the snow pile up around the jet.
I guess my point is that the average military aviator has a lot more to offer the world, and will be rewarded better, if you broaden your horizons and look beyond the airlines. You can't compete with a 1000hr 23 year old CFI on costs. You shouldn't have to.
BTW, B6 is told their investors they will lose money this year. A lot of money.
Spongebob
I guess my point is that the average military aviator has a lot more to offer the world, and will be rewarded better, if you broaden your horizons and look beyond the airlines. You can't compete with a 1000hr 23 year old CFI on costs. You shouldn't have to.
BTW, B6 is told their investors they will lose money this year. A lot of money.
Spongebob
03-03-2007, 12:12 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 657
Originally Posted by XtremeF150
Armed with what I know now about the airlines I usually tell every passenger I sit by going or coming from work, just how bad this industry is becoming and how much the company's are trying to cut costs. This includes training costs, maint. costs, salaries, and services. This will eventually lead to poor maint. and less qualified pilots and likely more incidents or accidents. I try to do everything I can to get th word out. Most of the general public are amazed at what is Really like to be a pilot. 
Insurance companies can increase rates for low time pilots so much that it will be cheaper to hire, train and pay for higher time pilots.
The consumer can create such an uproar (JetBlue tarmac incident) about low pay and low time pilots being responsible for their lives, that their Congressmen and women will force rules and regulations on the airlines, FAA etc.
These are the only avenues that I have not seen ALPA pursue for you guys.
03-03-2007, 12:50 PM
#88
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Doctors may make that kind of money, but remember their salaries are largely based on great insurance plans of their customers. If doctors had to directly charge their patients, they wouldn't earn more than $50,000 a year.
In contrast, this is a business that directly competes for money paid out of the customers pocket. The average business fare in $467 and the average out of pocket fare is $108. If every passenger was a business fare, we would be making way more than any doctor.
In contrast, this is a business that directly competes for money paid out of the customers pocket. The average business fare in $467 and the average out of pocket fare is $108. If every passenger was a business fare, we would be making way more than any doctor.
03-03-2007, 12:57 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
Originally Posted by Mesabah
Doctors may make that kind of money, but remember their salaries are largely based on great insurance plans of their customers. If doctors had to directly charge their patients, they wouldn't earn more than $50,000 a year.
In contrast, this is a business that directly competes for money paid out of the customers pocket. The average business fare in $467 and the average out of pocket fare is $108. If every passenger was a business fare, we would be making way more than any doctor.
In contrast, this is a business that directly competes for money paid out of the customers pocket. The average business fare in $467 and the average out of pocket fare is $108. If every passenger was a business fare, we would be making way more than any doctor.
Nope. We'd still be making the same amount of money. Management WOULD be getting paid more.
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