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The trend is bigger jets.

Old 06-09-2018, 01:09 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
By whom? The pilots at AS who haven't seen fit to put the scope limits in the contract - ever? The newbie pilots inherited from the Virgin acquisition many of whom simply want to leave,since AS is getting rid of the aircraft they are rated in and the bases they live at? Certainly not the Horizon pilots?

With Airbus now rebranding the bigger CRJs and Boeing buying a controlling interest in the Embraer civilian side, clearly both major aircraft companies believe that SOMEBODY will soon be flying 100 seat jets.


My understanding is United and Delta contract language restricts the use of larger aircraft at regional partners at all airlines, meaning if an airline desired to fly larger RJs for Alaska they would have to sever ties with UA and DL.


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Old 06-09-2018, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DL31082 View Post
Scope limits arw pretty much always in the mainline CBA, not in the regional CBAs. DL scope limits the DCI fleet count. UALs scope limits United Express. AS would have to negotiate scope into their contract.

Right now DL is maxed out on regional aircraft, for one regional to grow another has to shrink. UAL I think is maxed out as well, but I don’t know their scope as well as I do DL. I have no clue about AA.
UAL’s pilot union has filed a grievance alleging UAL is 2 aircraft over scope as far as 70/76 seaters. UAL’s scope is flexible and dependent on the number of mainline aircraft.

AAL is scoped out as well. As AAL brings regional flying in-house, they have been gradually reducing their flying with non-wholly owned regionals.
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by calmwinds View Post
UAL’s pilot union has filed a grievance alleging UAL is 2 aircraft over scope as far as 70/76 seaters. UAL’s scope is flexible and dependent on the number of mainline aircraft.

AAL is scoped out as well. As AAL brings regional flying in-house, they have been gradually reducing their flying with non-wholly owned regionals.
This is 100% wrong. Our scope has very defined limits, and the only way the company can increase those limits is by adding a new small narrow body a/c (CS, ERJ, etc.) and even then they can only add one new RJ to the limit for every 4 additional aircraft of the NSNB category.

UAL is completely scoped out and the two a/c found to be in violation of our scope is going to cost them.
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Grumble View Post
This is 100% wrong. Our scope has very defined limits, and the only way the company can increase those limits is by adding a new small narrow body a/c and even then they can only add one new RJ to the limit for every 4 additional aircraft of the NSNB category.

UAL is completely scoped out and the two a/c found to be in violation of our scope is going to cost them.
So if adding ML aircraft changes the scope cap on large RJs...wouldn’t you call that flexible and dependent on ML aircraft counts?
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FollowMe View Post
So if adding ML aircraft changes the scope cap on large RJs...wouldn’t you call that flexible and dependent on ML aircraft counts?
No because it’s dependent on a jet we don’t have and aren’t buying.

They have hit the defined ceiling of large RJs allowed to operate, and it’s not adjustable or negotiable.

1-C-1-a-(2)-(c) Up to a total of 255 76-Seat Aircraft plus 70-Seat Aircraft (“76/70- Seat Aircraft”), of which up to 130 may be 76-Seat Aircraft, and then, on or after January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
If we’re talking 50 seaters, then the discussion changes by mainline narrowbody fleet count but I don’t know what our total narrowbody fleet has done count wise.
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Old 06-09-2018, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DL31082 View Post
Scope limits arw pretty much always in the mainline CBA, not in the regional CBAs. DL scope limits the DCI fleet count. UALs scope limits United Express. AS would have to negotiate scope into their contract.

Right now DL is maxed out on regional aircraft, for one regional to grow another has to shrink. UAL I think is maxed out as well, but I don’t know their scope as well as I do DL. I have no clue about AA.
Delta isn’t scoped out on 50 seat flying...
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Grumble View Post
No because it’s dependent on a jet we don’t have and aren’t buying.

1-C-1-a-(2)-(c) Up to a total of 255 76-Seat Aircraft plus 70-Seat Aircraft (“76/70- Seat Aircraft”), of which up to 130 may be 76-Seat Aircraft, and then, on or after January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
So, basically, UAL is capped out at 153 76-seat aircraft. The legal language of this agreement is pretty bad because it doesn’t mention what happens with 70-seat aircraft after January 1, 2016.

A basic read says they can have 255 76/70 seat configuration, of which 153 may be 76-seat configuration. A good lawyer would say the agreement doesn’t say this based on the sloppy wording.

Is UAL over on 76-seat aircraft or 70-seat aircraft? How are RAH’s and SKW’s owned aircraft factored in, inside or outside the count?
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Old 06-09-2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
By whom? The pilots at AS who haven't seen fit to put the scope limits in the contract - ever? The newbie pilots inherited from the Virgin acquisition many of whom simply want to leave,since AS is getting rid of the aircraft they are rated in and the bases they live at? Certainly not the Horizon pilots?

With Airbus now rebranding the bigger CRJs and Boeing buying a controlling interest in the Embraer civilian side, clearly both major aircraft companies believe that SOMEBODY will soon be flying 100 seat jets.
Not so much.

The newer AS and VX pilots spent years at the regionals, so they have little tolerance for scope shenanigans. The senior VX pilots generally have worked for multiple airlines each, including legacies. They are not all leaving, but I'd expect many from NY to switch to any big four which will have them.

Also now is not really a great time to push scope boundaries. Any regional or alter-ego which is assigned NB size AC will want NB pay pretty quickly in the current pilot market conditions. Additionally, it will then become very hard for that major to hire pilots... nobody is going to sign up if stagnation or furlough is in the future, they would literally lose pilots and not be able to replace them (unless they stoop to CFI's).

AS will probably not take a big steaming scope dump in their house right now, and the pilot group will probably insist on scope next year.
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Old 06-09-2018, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DL31082 View Post
Scope limits arw pretty much always in the mainline CBA, not in the regional CBAs. DL scope limits the DCI fleet count. UALs scope limits United Express. AS would have to negotiate scope into their contract.

Right now DL is maxed out on regional aircraft, for one regional to grow another has to shrink. UAL I think is maxed out as well, but I don’t know their scope as well as I do DL. I have no clue about AA.
That's just it. I don't believe Alaska has ANY scope limits currently.
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Old 06-09-2018, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
That's just it. I don't believe Alaska has ANY scope limits currently.
Only that provided by DL and UA's regional feed contracts. Neither DL/UA, nor their unions, want to compete with a "virtual legacy" airline with most flying outsourced.
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