rickair7777

Fiction. They have a contract, and it's legally enforceable. Just like any other employeer/employee contract, of which there are countless examples. All manner of business is done via contracts every day in this country, and none of it requires a union.

What's different...

1) The fact that management is no way obligated to even have a contract in the first place, so presumably they think it's to their own benefit to do so. Also presumably they could scrap the entire contract at any time, or upon expiration if it has a specified end date.

2) The process by which the contract is achieved. At the major airline level, the threat of strike manifestly enhances labor's prospects. Compare a legacy to Avelo for example. At the regional level, it doesn't matter either way... union membership is more to make you feel like like you're "in the club" than anything else. Market forces will drive labor compensation... that's the whole POINT of the regional system and it works well. If you actually achieve an industry-leading contract via self-help you'll go the way of comair and expressjet. And No, ALPA did not get the AA regionals their big (temporary) raise, mainline management did that for obvious reasons.

3) The grievance process. If SAPA or an individual doesn't like how the company handles an issue, the ultimate recourse has to be a lawsuit.

trip

Sorry didn’t mean to be condescending, I thought you were someone “in the know” and was just searching for more information on the direction this is heading. I don’t know Domino or his background, he’s not wrong the economy is tanking and we all wait for hiring brakes to be applied, who will be first?

R0GER BALL

As a 750hr, year three FO, if I get hired at Envoy I’ll be paid $153/hour and receive $50,000 in bonuses by 950 hours.

I’ll make more then $200,000 in my first year at Envoy. As an ERJ CA. Reserve for at least a year, yes. But that’s at a ULCC too.

Damn. That beats “any” in my bid!

domino

never failed a check ride. You on the other hand, with those failures. Must have made UA think twice when they saw your PRIA.

chrisreedrules

Hey Rickair, on point #2 ALPA most certainly did have a big hand in these raises. They were proposed months ago by Envoy ALPA as a means to stop attrition to the LCCs.

rickair7777

It's remotely possible that management is blind and needed some pilots to explain the new reality to them (SAPA for example could do that too). Also because the WO's are union shops, any change in compensation would need to be coordinated with the union, since even a big raise is a CBA change. And the union would want the raise distributed equitably across the group.

But those raises would not have happened without the extreme supply and demand market forces currently in action.

Don't me wrong, at the majors unions play a huge role in pilot group success... market forces only matter for recruiting and retention of junior FO's (usually). Once they have you handcuffs they obviously don't want to pay you any more.

LAXtoDEN

Nah zero failures for me, but I guess my only question is why are you still an FO? Taking the upgrade is the fastest way out of your current situation that you describe as hell. I think we both know why.

chrisreedrules

Market forces often dictate contracts and compensation in literally every industry. At mainline. At the regionals. At flight schools. It still often takes ALPA involving themselves in the process to help provide the full picture to management. There is often a mystification of management personnel and executives by workers. But they’re no different than anyone else… Not all are very good at what they do. Few are, to be honest. Most are mediocre. Some are bad at it. Just like everything else in life.

So it isn’t fair to assume that management has some Machiavellian plan running in the background at all times. Quite the opposite. It takes an organization with the resources of ALPA to make things happen and provide the insight needed to solve problems with an outside the box approach. That’s what I think has been missed by most SkyWest pilots over the years. You’re a large enough pilot group that you could be a powerhouse within ALPA and you could benefit more directly from industry insight and pattern bargaining than you currently do.

domino

I haven’t been an FO in a while.

rickair7777

Generally true. Except for CAREER DESTINATION MAJOR AIRLINES... once you've got some seniority almost nobody leaves, so they *know* they have you locked in. If it was just market forces at the majors, new-hire and junior FO pay would be high but everything after that would flat-line because almost nobody would ever leave their seniority. Unions, with the threat of self-help, can leverage more.

At this exact moment in time, due to extreme industry circumstances, you might see some second-tier major contracts influenced by market forces... ie 10+ year captains leaving for legacies. But this is very rare situation.

Oh, sure. I've seen enough of that in both private industry and the mil. In fact most airline managers are sub-par by fortune 500 standards. It's a commodity industry and it's more about executing the usual sets and reps, than about vision and creativity.

But as an experienced and objective observer OO management is better than average for regionals, and better than some majors too. But their economic advantage today is simply economy of scale, not because they're great managers and not because they don't have a union. The previous managers were pretty good, to have grown the company to what it is today.

I have a 20-year ALPA pin. I've worked at union and non-union regionals. I even voted yes on the alpa drive they had when I was at OO. I just don't have any illusions about what unions at regionals will get you. BTDT.

The regional system exists for a specific reason... the deck is stacked in favor of the house. The only way to win is to not play.

Would OO help provide critical mass to ALPA? Obviously. Would OO pilots get an ROI on their 2%? Hard to say. IMO the quantifiable benefit would be more consistency in due process for those who get in trouble. So it could be viewed as insurance.