Class date without signing the contract?
 

Looking for insight. Are new hires who opted not to sign the contract receiving class dates or are you in limbo? I understand Skywest has 6-9 months of new hires in the hopper, wondering what timeline you could expect from a CJO to a class date without the contract? I'm in the RTP and will be approaching my hours in the upcoming months. Also guys in currently in a class, how many of your classmates signed the contract?

I was told by my rercruiter that she had no idea how long my wait would be by not signing. I accepted a CJO about a month ago. I got an email last week reminding me to sign the contract for a quick training date. I never intended to sign so at this point I dont expect to get a class date before I start at another regional.

So you have your hours and they still don't give you any estimate?

Right now, pretty much no one else is hiring. There are 1000s of young pilots in the flight school training pipeline that are working to become 121 eligable (121.167). With a dozen or so reaching this milestone every day and no one else hiring, why would SkyWest hire anyone that won't sign the contract? There is plenty of supply of pilot now. The shortage is abslutely over at this point.

The supply has caught up to demand (due to a decrease in demand and an increase in the training supply that started a couple years ago), and the stagnation has begun.

Air Wiskey is hiring
CommutAir is hiring
PSA is hiring
albeit at reduced rates that are more like the early 2000's.

Skywest & Republic is you sign a training contract. So, how long do you think before the production catches up to the legacy needs and the flood gates open again. Last year was the biggest year for retirements. The mandatory retirements only drop under the 3,100 last year to about 2,950 this year. Each year for the next 10 years it drops by 50-150 a year then plateaus out. That does not include medical outs, early outs or growth.

This slowdown should only last until Boeing, Airbus and P&W get their crap in order and start delivering planes at a better rate, they were down to less than 25 a month earlier this year, and are back up to 47 currently. The backorders at all the majors caused aglut of pilots and no planes. This was aggravated by the geared engine issues grounding many of those planes. The groundings are the primary reason of the Spirit furlough. Then - absent a big recession - the hiring should get busy again.

The shotage is not over; it's just paused. There mainline retirements just peaked last year. It took from 2015 to now to peak. It's not going away overnight. Once the deliveries and engine issues are resolved it will pick back up again.

Currently 121 eligible and whats being hired are not the same. There will be competition again for the slots. Higher time, higher education, better experience will all play a role again. The employment contracts with non-competes were blocked by the FTC a few months ago. They did not say if the ruling applies to the RLA industry. There is a high likelyhood that the contracts will be ruled invalid under the FTC, and the simple legal principle of duress. Sign it or no job.

I think the furloughs from the other majors and cargo ops along with the military hires will cover the majority of the mainline hires for the next bit. Let's face it, if Delta/United/American/Southwest aren't making money with every seat full, there is no way that Spirit, JetBlue, or Frontier can survive in their current form. There will be thousands of pilots cut and dumped on the street for the legacies to pick up.

By the time that things really start going again, the output in the pilot training pipeline of student pilots will be nearly double what it is right now. The experienced regional pilots will start getting hired at the legacies again, but it will never be like it has for the last few years again.

Here's another thing for you - do you think that there will be any regionals a year from now that don't have a training contract that is enforcable? Massive loans disguised as training contracts that will be due if someone leaves? That will be the new industry standard going forward.

Regional signing bonuses are almost all gone now. The few remaining airlines that are offering them will be staffed in the next 6 months and all of those bonuses will be gone. Regionals will have much better qualified pilots to start hiring (previous 91k or 135 pilots) so those straight out of flight school with 1500 hours will have a hard time getting hired at a regional again.

Even when airbus and boeing start building airplanes quickly again, Delta and United will be start parking their older aircraft. United's fleet is ridiculously old right now and nearly 1/3 will be parked in the coming years. 250 of United's airplanes will be over 30 years old before their big retirement wave really starts to hit.

AA and DL also have their flow obligations. The first 20 pilots hired every month at DL are flows. Not sure what American's rate is.

2021-23 was the best hiring years anybody on here has probably ever seen, I don't expect that to return the way it was. I'm coming across more and more "yeah maybe I should put my stuff in" guys who don't realize the easy path has gone. Back to job fairs and TPIC.

All of those airlines are making money and I seriously doubt the other airlines will furlough thousands of pilots unless the economy crashes and 250 pilots from spirit likely won't be thousands. I do think most of if not all of the regionals will start requiring training contracts. Here's a website with us airlines with the more than 20 million in revenue who's numbers are posted

https://transtats.bts.gov/Data_Elements_Financial.aspx?Qn6n=J

I agree about the future of hiring. I don't see mass stagnation absent any major macro-economic drivers. Things will pick up, inevitably they will likely slow down some in the 2030s but by then the age makeup of the airlines will more resemble any other corporate workforce, with a steady flow of retirements year in year out meaning while it won't be a rocket ship, it's still going to be possible to move up in this industry.

Anyone selling doom is trying to self-justify their choice to stay where they are, or ironically one of those guys who started flying in 2019 and lucked into a legacy job at the bare min qualifications and wants to pretend they know how this industry works more than anyone else. Lol

I know a currently class has all but two people in the class not sign the contract. One's a direct entry captain. It seems like the classes are full of contract signers.

I mean the contract stinks without question. But reality is things are slowing down very fast in the regional world so everyone who wants out of GA or wherever they are will sign on the dotted line.

So long as OO is hiring new FOs I’d imagine you’ll see 90% of CJOs sign it til the industry pace picks back up again (if it does) in the near future, then the market will probably dictate an end or heavy amendment to these contracts to keep pilots coming in.

That reads strange. All but two didn’t sign the contract? You mean everyone signed except for two? Anyway, that OO contract is the most predatory thing I’ve seen in a long, long while. May as well go to military flight school.

This.. and we still don't really know yet if things will get worse, lots of airlines are not doing too well. There are still a lot of pilot retirements coming through this decade but it's definitly the back of the hiring wave now for the industry. If you really enjoy flying though, take the opportunity to appreciate what you have, even if it's a lowly flying job. Perspective is definitley something good to have. Things will pick up again, it's the nature of the industry.. feast or famine.

Any idea what PSA competitive minimums are?

are you even in the industry?

Pathetic
 

Anyone who signs the contract is pathetic imo. The only reason one would sign it is because they need an edge over someone else because theyre resume is lacking. Cant wait to hear how skywest goes after one of them once they fail out pf training and are on the hook for $80k. ( and yes ive read it, it states that if you're terminated for ANY reason after indoc you're responsible)

they have already said. Failing out, medical out, and getting hired by DL/UA are no repayment..

I have not read it so just for the crowd, is it actually expressly written in the contract that these things will be 100% excused from any repayment or is it just a verbal assurance from management? I was told it was verbal only, which obviously would not be worth much.

its verbal only, which means nothing. Skywest management is as dishonest as they come

ive read the contract and it says "for any reason." Anyone who trusts what management says vs whats wrotten in the contract deserves to be held liable.

Unless it's written in the contract, it means nothing. Do not trust any management, but especially not SkyWest management. They are dishonest, and, in some cases, vindictive.

It explicitly mentions in the contract about the medical out is no payment, but the rest of it requires payment. Unless you go work for another airline that "doesn't compete with the same routes as Skywest" then you have to pay, unless you go to DL/UA. Any time after indoc if you fail out you owe the money, whether or not they would come after you is another story, but in the contract that's what it says.

It says that in the contract

dude i have a copy of the contract it does not say that.

For that amount of money it'd be very wise to have a lawyer look over the contract before you sign anything.

so with a 96% pass rate. If you’re even a average competent pilot. Then you should have no problem… If you’re worried about failing multiple checkrides. Have multiple extra training sessions. Maybe your in the wrong business. Af far as medical out, we have pilot on medical leave for years. So really it comes down to if you think you can get on another major besides DL/UA in under say 4 years. But you need a crystal ball for that…..

It's pretty much mandatory
 

My buddy just received an email which stated, "...once you sign the contract, we will forward your information to schedule you for a class date." They ghosted me until I signed and then had an interview scheduled in two weeks (next week) so I will find out what they say. Since it does not go into effect until after INDOC, I figured it game me time to see if anything else pops up. From what I have heard, and as previously stated, they have more than enough people in the holding area for the forseeable future, and if I do end up staying, flowing to UA or DL will nullify the contract.

I don't get your point, you just said all those things require no payback?
Either it's in the contract or it's not, see the confusion above, 80K's a lot of money not a 12K type rating, before a new pilot goes signing anything like that it should be looked over by a competent third party.

Jesus H Christ I hope you never apply to Delta

lol what flow?

years ago it was 12k at most airlines. But back then pay was $19hr and you didn’t get laid tell after ioe. And no hotel provided.. Now pay for ATP/CTP. Pay day 1 indoc $90hr, single room hotel… $80k….

You get laid after IOE? I'm doing it wrong then...

Quit spouting this "Just happy to be here bullshìt". I've never of an airline not providing a hotel to new hires and very few had training contracts especially ones that were $80k. You sign this contract your part of the problem and I assure you pilots at majors will view you negatively.

Years ago SkyWest didn't provide a hotel during training and you got $600 after passing training. That was at the time that Comair, ASA, Continetal Express, and others were all charging $8-12K to get a job with them. Around 1999 some of those airlines stared waiving the fee for higher time applicants. It allowed the lower time guys to get hired earlier if they were willing to write the check. I knew several pilots that were more than happy to write the check at 1000 hours vs wating on getting the 2500tt/500multi which was what you typically needed to get a regional job in the 90s.

None of those pay for training types were ever held back from getting a job later on.

Pilots at majors couldn't care less if you signed a training contract or not. Most aren't even aware of the current hiring situation at their own airline, let alone a regional.

Exactly. Do what is best for your career, even if it's signing the contract.

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you're wrong on this. We all got our start somewhere and most of us did it the right way weren't blue falcons. SkyWests decline has been a pretty good convo in the crew room lately.

not sure I have heard a lot of backlash against current OO pilots in the crew room.

but I know plenty of folks who’s kid’s, nephews, friends kids etc are currently working on their ratings and wondering whether OO is the premiere operator it used to be.

regardless, this training contract won’t go away until the demand / supply balance shifts again. things don’t look super bright right now. not doom and gloom but enough hiring slow down for supply to build in excess of demand.

Care about the contract? No, not particularly. Im long gone.

Care for the good of the individuals and the precedent and relate because I sat in that seat? Totally care. I despise the tactics. I am confident it won't make things culturally better and tells me that management has zero interest in running a good business model that takes care of people. This is aviation though, so lets be real, management doesn't care for the most part. Im telling everyone starting out now to avoid any place with a contract if they have any possible way, life is too crazy for that hanging over someone's head.

Actually until recently delta didn’t provide hotels to new hires