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Old 11-20-2021, 05:20 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by BLAHBLAHBLAH View Post
I never worked as much as a reserve line and get to pick the days I want to work. I’ll make over 300k. Plus bidding every vacation week I want that will pay over 50 tip for
each week (two that paid over 60) The minor pay increase is not worth it for a commute across the country.

You have worked a lot more days then an average reserve line off for you to do that!! I am not talking about the commute. Everyones commute is different but in days worked for you as a senior FO to do that will work more events then a junior captain in a calender month. We are not talking vacation pay extra. If your saying otherwise I am calling your BS flag. Math does not lie when it comes to numbers. You make it sound like all the guys sitting at the bottom of the captains list haven’t been in your position. Been there done that know what you make and how you make it.
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Old 11-20-2021, 05:24 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Zman81 View Post
I don’t understand your guys math. A senior FO can make as much as a junior captain BUT WILL WORK MORE FOR IT. Ok let’s take a look at some math:

a 95 tfp reserve line for a captain is equivalent to 136 tfp for a senior FO. I am using MAX 12 year pay for a captain at 245 tfp and 171 tfp for an fo. But let’s say the fo gets a line (cause he is senior) with 21 days off at 95 tfp. Which is a base month. The avg reserve guys are doing today about 125 tfp (that’s with minimum 15 off). So if you take that 245x125 tfp your at 30,625. So for an FO to do that he is going to need 179 tfp. We previously agreed the avg senior line for an FO is 21 days off. So if you take his minimum monthly guarantee of 95 he is going to need 84 tfp EXTRA to make the 179. So even if he gets premium that pays 10 a day (which is very hard to get). He is going to have to work a MINIMUM OF 8 EXTRA DAYS!!! So his 21 off becomes 13 off that’s being gracious and giving him 10 tfp per day of work. I am a very junior captain and I was a very senior FO for a very long time. I can assure you a senior FO can make as much as a junior captain. But he/she will work alot harder for it then a junior captain commuting. This notion that a reserve line just pays 95 is INCORRECT and misleading. You get whatever pays higher. The average reserve lines today are in the 120’s. A year ago even during the height of Covid they were In the 100’s. A 3 day block of reserve pays 18 a 3 day trip pays 19.5. So if he/she gets called out for a 3 day right away their pay increases 1.5 tfp! Most senior FO’s I have come across realize this and hence are taking first available.
Junior captain commuting loses a minimum of, let's be generous, 3 days to commuting. That's assuming 3 day reserve blocks where they scrunched four of the blocks into 6 day blocks via smart trading, and left the fifth 3 day block. That's not for the transon commute where you may lose a day before and after a trip. That's not for today's typical reserve lines where it's a bunch of 4 day blocks that you can't legally bunch of.

So that's a minimum of 3 days lost to commuting, bringing that captain down to 12 days off, which is less than your 13 days you hypothesized to match a junior captain at 125. I will grant you though that it will require way less thought and living in cwa to get the junior captain pay, since you're just commuting and flying your line. But it is not incorrect to say that you can make just as much in roughly the same days off (one more day off using your numbers and my commuting numbers).
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Old 11-20-2021, 05:25 AM
  #103  
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Hey hey hey... let's all take a deep breath. If 813 pilots want to continue to bypass lets just let them.

As with everything else in this business, one pilot's trash is another's treasure.
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Old 11-20-2021, 05:55 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Zman81 View Post
I don’t understand your guys math. A senior FO can make as much as a junior captain BUT WILL WORK MORE FOR IT. Ok let’s take a look at some math:

a 95 tfp reserve line for a captain is equivalent to 136 tfp for a senior FO. I am using MAX 12 year pay for a captain at 245 tfp and 171 tfp for an fo. But let’s say the fo gets a line (cause he is senior) with 21 days off at 95 tfp. Which is a base month. The avg reserve guys are doing today about 125 tfp (that’s with minimum 15 off). So if you take that 245x125 tfp your at 30,625. So for an FO to do that he is going to need 179 tfp. We previously agreed the avg senior line for an FO is 21 days off. So if you take his minimum monthly guarantee of 95 he is going to need 84 tfp EXTRA to make the 179. So even if he gets premium that pays 10 a day (which is very hard to get). He is going to have to work a MINIMUM OF 8 EXTRA DAYS!!! So his 21 off becomes 13 off that’s being gracious and giving him 10 tfp per day of work. I am a very junior captain and I was a very senior FO for a very long time. I can assure you a senior FO can make as much as a junior captain. But he/she will work alot harder for it then a junior captain commuting. This notion that a reserve line just pays 95 is INCORRECT and misleading. You get whatever pays higher. The average reserve lines today are in the 120’s. A year ago even during the height of Covid they were In the 100’s. A 3 day block of reserve pays 18 a 3 day trip pays 19.5. So if he/she gets called out for a 3 day right away their pay increases 1.5 tfp! Most senior FO’s I have come across realize this and hence are taking first available.
Bologna. Most senior FOs are NOT working as hard as junior captains. They just know how to play the system and are getting paid a high TFP/day ratio.

I’ll bet you a six pack of Deja Blu that the number bypassing upgrade will not drop below 600 at any point.
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Old 11-20-2021, 06:01 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by waterskisabersw View Post
Junior captain commuting loses a minimum of, let's be generous, 3 days to commuting. That's assuming 3 day reserve blocks where they scrunched four of the blocks into 6 day blocks via smart trading, and left the fifth 3 day block. That's not for the transon commute where you may lose a day before and after a trip. That's not for today's typical reserve lines where it's a bunch of 4 day blocks that you can't legally bunch of.

So that's a minimum of 3 days lost to commuting, bringing that captain down to 12 days off, which is less than your 13 days you hypothesized to match a junior captain at 125. I will grant you though that it will require way less thought and living in cwa to get the junior captain pay, since you're just commuting and flying your line. But it is not incorrect to say that you can make just as much in roughly the same days off (one more day off using your numbers and my commuting numbers).
Well the reason is I don’t include commutes is everyone’s commute is different. I commute from the middle of the country and don’t lose any day off. I commute the day of on a PM (getting there by my RAP) and when I am done I take a red eye back home. I am at home by 7:30 am. Now for some that sounds brutal but I can easily sleep on a plane. I know some that do what you said above. All I am saying is this when I was a senior FO living in base. I did work a lot more to come close to what I make now. That’s from my perspective. Now without a doubt I miss certain vacation picks and having days off I wanted. But if I was going to wait for that it would be another 6-7 years of waiting before I got that in my home domicile as a captain. If commuting bothers you then without a doubt bypass. If the issue is your thinking pay wise it’s not the same.
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Old 11-20-2021, 06:02 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER View Post
I’ll bet you a six pack of Deja Blu that the number bypassing upgrade will not drop below 600 at any point.
We got a high roller here!
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Old 11-20-2021, 06:08 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER View Post
Bologna. Most senior FOs are NOT working as hard as junior captains. They just know how to play the system and are getting paid a high TFP/day ratio.

I’ll bet you a six pack of Deja Blu that the number bypassing upgrade will not drop below 600 at any point.
I hope your right in terms of bypass I really do as someone that wants to get out of Oakland! But time will tell on that one. As for pay a junior captain will work less events then a senior fo period. I have the perspective of both seats. Most reserve guys here fly. We very rarely sit at all. We don’t get junior manned because we cannot get junior manned on reserve. Unless you agree to more flying on your last day.
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Old 11-20-2021, 06:14 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Zman81 View Post
I hope your right in terms of bypass I really do as someone that wants to get out of Oakland! But time will tell on that one. As for pay a junior captain will work less events then a senior fo period. I have the perspective of both seats. Most reserve guys here fly. We very rarely sit at all. We don’t get junior manned because we cannot get junior manned on reserve. Unless you agree to more flying on your last day.
Mark my words. Initially there will be a lot of FOs taking the upgrade and the first few classes will go junior due to pent up demand and then it’ll settle back to what it’s been for a while…. 58-60% system seniority and you can hold plug captain.
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Old 11-20-2021, 06:16 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan View Post
We got a high roller here!
You should see me at a 3..2..1 deal. (More like the 6..5..4 anymore).
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Old 11-20-2021, 06:57 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Zman81 View Post
I hope your right in terms of bypass I really do as someone that wants to get out of Oakland! But time will tell on that one. As for pay a junior captain will work less events then a senior fo period. I have the perspective of both seats. Most reserve guys here fly. We very rarely sit at all. We don’t get junior manned because we cannot get junior manned on reserve. Unless you agree to more flying on your last day.

Zman, sent you a PM with a couple questions if you have time. Thanks!
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