SWA ATN sli
08-01-2011, 03:06 AM
#101
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by buddies8
Sorry for adding my two cents, but this sounds like a somewhat, slightly refined AA/TWA integration. Most the TWA pilots have been furloughed from AA for almost ten years. Just takes a little hick up (hiccup, unless you are referring to Geithner who really is a hick) in the economy and furloughs begin. I would fight this and go to arbitration.
The AT pilots have nothing to loose(is the correction really necessary here??), they definitely wont do any worse in arbitration. Once you are integrated, SWA cannot stop you from getting what is yours. SWA pilots must really think they are untouchable.
Were they not also trying to staple the Frontier pilots to the bottom. Seems to be a SWA pilot trait.
The AT pilots have nothing to loose(is the correction really necessary here??), they definitely wont do any worse in arbitration. Once you are integrated, SWA cannot stop you from getting what is yours. SWA pilots must really think they are untouchable.
Were they not also trying to staple the Frontier pilots to the bottom. Seems to be a SWA pilot trait.
08-01-2011, 03:12 AM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Retired, again...
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by tsquare
I can see a scenario where some of those FOs leave SWA for greener pastures.
Oh, the HUMANITY!!!
Oh, the HUMANITY!!!
I have family who was an 5 year AT f/o when WN showed up. He left in March for FDX.......lookin' smarter everyday.
Regards,
BG
08-01-2011, 03:20 AM
#103
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by FedElta
Hey T,
I have family who was an 5 year AT f/o when WN showed up. He left in March for FDX.......lookin' smarter everyday.
Regards,
BG
I have family who was an 5 year AT f/o when WN showed up. He left in March for FDX.......lookin' smarter everyday.
Regards,
BG
08-01-2011, 03:28 AM
#104
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
My view as a corporate guy:
Money isn't everything, and as long as my financial obligations are met I'll take improved QOL over more $$$. Typically, seniority is what dictates QOL which is why, pay being equal, it is so important.
That said, I've seen first-hand how a junior SWA FO can completely rebuild their schedule with their trip-trade software...and without knowing other airlines' methods, the SWA program is nothing short of spectacular for allowing one to maximize whatever is important to them = money OR QOL. This, combined with the substantial pay increase that comes with SWAPA's contract, will do nothing but improve the bottom line for AirTran pilots...with the exception of greatly increased upgrade times.
But really, who gives a damn about a fourth stripe when you can be paid equivalent to a captain in the right seat? Is the ego stroke that important?
That said, I do believe giving *all* upgrades through 2020 (or whenever) to SWA FOs is wrong, if only because it causes a visceral reaction making people opposed to the proposal. The argument of "You get a pay increase in this merger - what do we get?" seems moot because what SWA pilots get is immediate revenue growth in their company that they simply could not have organically supported.
I think AAI pilots should immediately start receiving SWA pay & benefits upon implementation of the SLI, not dragged out over a couple years...again, if only because the delay causes hostile feelings in AAI pilots.
I don't understand some SWA pilots' opposition to AAI Captains keeping their positions - how one can justify such a blatant seat grab otherwise as "fair" is beyond me.
Its hardly a perfect agreement, and there are things both sides greatly dislike. I bet it will pass, and three years from now folks will largely have forgotten about this - much like people seem to have forgotten the discord around the NWA/DAL SLI hearings.
Money isn't everything, and as long as my financial obligations are met I'll take improved QOL over more $$$. Typically, seniority is what dictates QOL which is why, pay being equal, it is so important.
That said, I've seen first-hand how a junior SWA FO can completely rebuild their schedule with their trip-trade software...and without knowing other airlines' methods, the SWA program is nothing short of spectacular for allowing one to maximize whatever is important to them = money OR QOL. This, combined with the substantial pay increase that comes with SWAPA's contract, will do nothing but improve the bottom line for AirTran pilots...with the exception of greatly increased upgrade times.
But really, who gives a damn about a fourth stripe when you can be paid equivalent to a captain in the right seat? Is the ego stroke that important?
That said, I do believe giving *all* upgrades through 2020 (or whenever) to SWA FOs is wrong, if only because it causes a visceral reaction making people opposed to the proposal. The argument of "You get a pay increase in this merger - what do we get?" seems moot because what SWA pilots get is immediate revenue growth in their company that they simply could not have organically supported.
I think AAI pilots should immediately start receiving SWA pay & benefits upon implementation of the SLI, not dragged out over a couple years...again, if only because the delay causes hostile feelings in AAI pilots.
I don't understand some SWA pilots' opposition to AAI Captains keeping their positions - how one can justify such a blatant seat grab otherwise as "fair" is beyond me.
Its hardly a perfect agreement, and there are things both sides greatly dislike. I bet it will pass, and three years from now folks will largely have forgotten about this - much like people seem to have forgotten the discord around the NWA/DAL SLI hearings.
08-01-2011, 04:20 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
My view as a corporate guy:
Money isn't everything, and as long as my financial obligations are met I'll take improved QOL over more $$$. Typically, seniority is what dictates QOL which is why, pay being equal, it is so important.
That said, I've seen first-hand how a junior SWA FO can completely rebuild their schedule with their trip-trade software...and without knowing other airlines' methods, the SWA program is nothing short of spectacular for allowing one to maximize whatever is important to them = money OR QOL. This, combined with the substantial pay increase that comes with SWAPA's contract, will do nothing but improve the bottom line for AirTran pilots...with the exception of greatly increased upgrade times.
Money isn't everything, and as long as my financial obligations are met I'll take improved QOL over more $$$. Typically, seniority is what dictates QOL which is why, pay being equal, it is so important.
That said, I've seen first-hand how a junior SWA FO can completely rebuild their schedule with their trip-trade software...and without knowing other airlines' methods, the SWA program is nothing short of spectacular for allowing one to maximize whatever is important to them = money OR QOL. This, combined with the substantial pay increase that comes with SWAPA's contract, will do nothing but improve the bottom line for AirTran pilots...with the exception of greatly increased upgrade times.
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
But really, who gives a damn about a fourth stripe when you can be paid equivalent to a captain in the right seat? Is the ego stroke that important?
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
That said, I do believe giving *all* upgrades through 2020 (or whenever) to SWA FOs is wrong, if only because it causes a visceral reaction making people opposed to the proposal. The argument of "You get a pay increase in this merger - what do we get?" seems moot because what SWA pilots get is immediate revenue growth in their company that they simply could not have organically supported.
I don't understand some SWA pilots' opposition to AAI Captains keeping their positions - how one can justify such a blatant seat grab otherwise as "fair" is beyond me.
I don't understand some SWA pilots' opposition to AAI Captains keeping their positions - how one can justify such a blatant seat grab otherwise as "fair" is beyond me.
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
Its hardly a perfect agreement, and there are things both sides greatly dislike. I bet it will pass, and three years from now folks will largely have forgotten about this - much like people seem to have forgotten the discord around the NWA/DAL SLI hearings.
The NWA/REP merger proved the longer the fence, and the more pilots it impacts, the longer the negative effects linger...
08-01-2011, 04:46 AM
#106
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
I don't care about the 4th stripe; but I do care about the pay. And I absolutely reject that SWA F/Os make what other airline's captains make.
Which is the apples-to-apples comparison....not what other legacy/major airlines may or may not negotiate for payrates in the future.
I don't think so. If this stands as is, I think SWA will have brought in a cancer to their pilot group -- you will have a significant group of guys who will FOREVER feel they got the shaft, which only breeds disharmony and disunity going forward. And unlike the DAL/NWA SLI, with very limited fences of fairly short duration, this is a 9 year fence impacting 50% of the AirTran group.
While sacrifices will have to be made and folks still won't be happy, I think this merger has substantially better odds of being a win/win for all employee groups than it being another AA/TWA situation.
08-01-2011, 04:47 AM
#107
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
But really, who gives a damn about a fourth stripe when you can be paid equivalent to a captain in the right seat?
08-01-2011, 04:49 AM
#108
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
Originally Posted by tsquare
I agree with your post overall. I am just going to focus on this one thing. The pay comparison you are speaking of right now is an aberration. SWA FOs make more than other airlines' captains right now because of the bankruptcy contracts, but over the next 2 years this will change. I am not so sure that the exhibited attitudes will be the same at that point. If they are, then SWA will be the ones lowering the bar.
08-01-2011, 04:54 AM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
Based on guarantee alone, the hourly rate of SWA FOs look to be within a couple percent of AAI captains, under the new AAI contract. Once you consider SWA's "trip credit" system and other work rules, I don't think the claim that SWA FOs *right now* make the same or more as AAI captains *right now* is a stretch.
Which is the apples-to-apples comparison....not what other legacy/major airlines may or may not negotiate for payrates in the future.
Which is the apples-to-apples comparison....not what other legacy/major airlines may or may not negotiate for payrates in the future.
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
I don't disagree...but if the AAI group is a cancer, SWA management & SWAPA will have brought it on themselves via this SLI proposal...and I think relatively small tweaks would make it more palatable for membership.
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
While sacrifices will have to be made and folks still won't be happy, I think this merger has substantially better odds of being a win/win for all employee groups than it being another AA/TWA situation.
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