AT and SWA SLI: How to make it work.
08-24-2011, 10:03 AM
#1
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 17
AT and SWA SLI: How to make it work.
This is my post from last night that got buried; so I thought I would start a new thread to find out what really is important to those involved in this. What would you offer as a realistic solution to integrating both sides.
Instead of us advancing the argument of the merits of or lack there of the past offer, lets find out what it will take to make the integration work for you. Here is an opportunity for each one of us to offer a solution. What is the most important factor for your ideal integration list and how can it work for both sides?
************************************************** ***************
"So lets go down that seniority road for a minute....
Scenario #1: Integration is ONE for ONE based on DOH after the Luv cappys pre 1993. If it's based on DOH, it will cause AT cappys to downgrade to FO’s. But they have DOH Seniority. If it's DOH, seat lock doesn’t seem even possible, can it? But, the outcome of it should make both sides satisfied?? One for one seniority based on DOH and more $$ for AT guys and upgrades for the stagnated LUV FO’s.
Scenario #2: Seniority is determined by a ratio of AT guys to LUV's. Lets just say 3:1. Like above, new seniority list starts after the LUV’s cappys pre 1993. There will still be down grades for some AT capts and FO's sitting at the bottom as a function of the math.
I think most can agree the SL9 offer was crap for both sides in some way or form. Some saw it more objectionable than others for many reasons. But there has to be a way for integration to happen and create a spirit of unity in the end.
(And, no I am not suggesting a chorus of Kumbaya, followed by a swig of canyon Kool-Aid!)
We all know no one side is going to get it all in this. Every group will have to decide what the priority for integration they want and “fight” to get it. Will the determining factor be seniority, seat lock, equipt.lock, money, Qol, commutes, domiciles or better ties. Take your pick, but NO ONE is going to get or keep it all.
This is but one person’s thinking out loud, not an intentional flame lobbed to harm or offend. All I know is at some point we’re going to want to sit in the bar and swap stories about the crazies hauled around in the back of our airplanes."
************************************************** **************
Instead of us advancing the argument of the merits of or lack there of the past offer, lets find out what it will take to make the integration work for you. Here is an opportunity for each one of us to offer a solution. What is the most important factor for your ideal integration list and how can it work for both sides?
************************************************** ***************
"So lets go down that seniority road for a minute....
Scenario #1: Integration is ONE for ONE based on DOH after the Luv cappys pre 1993. If it's based on DOH, it will cause AT cappys to downgrade to FO’s. But they have DOH Seniority. If it's DOH, seat lock doesn’t seem even possible, can it? But, the outcome of it should make both sides satisfied?? One for one seniority based on DOH and more $$ for AT guys and upgrades for the stagnated LUV FO’s.
Scenario #2: Seniority is determined by a ratio of AT guys to LUV's. Lets just say 3:1. Like above, new seniority list starts after the LUV’s cappys pre 1993. There will still be down grades for some AT capts and FO's sitting at the bottom as a function of the math.
I think most can agree the SL9 offer was crap for both sides in some way or form. Some saw it more objectionable than others for many reasons. But there has to be a way for integration to happen and create a spirit of unity in the end.
(And, no I am not suggesting a chorus of Kumbaya, followed by a swig of canyon Kool-Aid!)
We all know no one side is going to get it all in this. Every group will have to decide what the priority for integration they want and “fight” to get it. Will the determining factor be seniority, seat lock, equipt.lock, money, Qol, commutes, domiciles or better ties. Take your pick, but NO ONE is going to get or keep it all.
This is but one person’s thinking out loud, not an intentional flame lobbed to harm or offend. All I know is at some point we’re going to want to sit in the bar and swap stories about the crazies hauled around in the back of our airplanes."
************************************************** **************
08-24-2011, 10:53 AM
#2
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
No, and no.
Who next?
Seriously, I don't think that this can be bargained or mediated out any more. Probably arbitration, and if the arbitration results are awful there will be separate operations with voluntary transfers only. Maybe a predetermined slot for a voluntary transfer, the contract is infinitely amendable.
Who next?
Seriously, I don't think that this can be bargained or mediated out any more. Probably arbitration, and if the arbitration results are awful there will be separate operations with voluntary transfers only. Maybe a predetermined slot for a voluntary transfer, the contract is infinitely amendable.
08-24-2011, 11:02 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Dynamic List - Relative seniority, and when a Southwest pilot retires the next Southwest pilot takes his spot and the same goes for Airtran pilots. Upgrades due to growth are given at a ratio of the pre-merger pilot group size.
08-24-2011, 11:05 AM
#5
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by LuvJockey
Seriously, I don't think that this can be bargained or mediated out any more. Probably arbitration, and if the arbitration results are awful there will be separate operations with voluntary transfers only.
The arbitration you guys are going to have is not binding?
You can ignore it if you don't like the results? Really?
Is that in your transition agreement?
08-24-2011, 11:18 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,920
Originally Posted by 5wnriders
This is my post from last night that got buried; so I thought I would start a new thread to find out what really is important to those involved in this. What would you offer as a realistic solution to integrating both sides.
Instead of us advancing the argument of the merits of or lack there of the past offer, lets find out what it will take to make the integration work for you. Here is an opportunity for each one of us to offer a solution. What is the most important factor for your ideal integration list and how can it work for both sides?
************************************************** ***************
"So lets go down that seniority road for a minute....
Scenario #1: Integration is ONE for ONE based on DOH after the Luv cappys pre 1993. If it's based on DOH, it will cause AT cappys to downgrade to FO’s. But they have DOH Seniority. If it's DOH, seat lock doesn’t seem even possible, can it? But, the outcome of it should make both sides satisfied?? One for one seniority based on DOH and more $$ for AT guys and upgrades for the stagnated LUV FO’s.
Scenario #2: Seniority is determined by a ratio of AT guys to LUV's. Lets just say 3:1. Like above, new seniority list starts after the LUV’s cappys pre 1993. There will still be down grades for some AT capts and FO's sitting at the bottom as a function of the math.
I think most can agree the SL9 offer was crap for both sides in some way or form. Some saw it more objectionable than others for many reasons. But there has to be a way for integration to happen and create a spirit of unity in the end.
(And, no I am not suggesting a chorus of Kumbaya, followed by a swig of canyon Kool-Aid!)
We all know no one side is going to get it all in this. Every group will have to decide what the priority for integration they want and “fight” to get it. Will the determining factor be seniority, seat lock, equipt.lock, money, Qol, commutes, domiciles or better ties. Take your pick, but NO ONE is going to get or keep it all.
This is but one person’s thinking out loud, not an intentional flame lobbed to harm or offend. All I know is at some point we’re going to want to sit in the bar and swap stories about the crazies hauled around in the back of our airplanes."
************************************************** **************
Instead of us advancing the argument of the merits of or lack there of the past offer, lets find out what it will take to make the integration work for you. Here is an opportunity for each one of us to offer a solution. What is the most important factor for your ideal integration list and how can it work for both sides?
************************************************** ***************
"So lets go down that seniority road for a minute....
Scenario #1: Integration is ONE for ONE based on DOH after the Luv cappys pre 1993. If it's based on DOH, it will cause AT cappys to downgrade to FO’s. But they have DOH Seniority. If it's DOH, seat lock doesn’t seem even possible, can it? But, the outcome of it should make both sides satisfied?? One for one seniority based on DOH and more $$ for AT guys and upgrades for the stagnated LUV FO’s.
Scenario #2: Seniority is determined by a ratio of AT guys to LUV's. Lets just say 3:1. Like above, new seniority list starts after the LUV’s cappys pre 1993. There will still be down grades for some AT capts and FO's sitting at the bottom as a function of the math.
I think most can agree the SL9 offer was crap for both sides in some way or form. Some saw it more objectionable than others for many reasons. But there has to be a way for integration to happen and create a spirit of unity in the end.
(And, no I am not suggesting a chorus of Kumbaya, followed by a swig of canyon Kool-Aid!)
We all know no one side is going to get it all in this. Every group will have to decide what the priority for integration they want and “fight” to get it. Will the determining factor be seniority, seat lock, equipt.lock, money, Qol, commutes, domiciles or better ties. Take your pick, but NO ONE is going to get or keep it all.
This is but one person’s thinking out loud, not an intentional flame lobbed to harm or offend. All I know is at some point we’re going to want to sit in the bar and swap stories about the crazies hauled around in the back of our airplanes."
************************************************** **************
08-24-2011, 11:20 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
This is interesting. It's become obvious to me that the Southwest guys have been so isolated from the rest of the world for the last few years that, while they are very good at espousing what they don't want, they haven't got a clue as to what they want.
DOH? No.
Relative Seniority? No.
Punishment for they Air Tran pilots to haze them as if they are pledges in a college fraternity, so as to one day be worthy enough to wear the sacred Greek letters on their chest so they can pick up chicks, only to be accomplished by suffering on the bottom of the seniority list for a period of years, preferably decades? YES!
But, how do you do that without looking bad? You can't.
DOH? No.
Relative Seniority? No.
Punishment for they Air Tran pilots to haze them as if they are pledges in a college fraternity, so as to one day be worthy enough to wear the sacred Greek letters on their chest so they can pick up chicks, only to be accomplished by suffering on the bottom of the seniority list for a period of years, preferably decades? YES!
But, how do you do that without looking bad? You can't.
