tsquare

This is the crux of a discussion that I get into over at DAL. The other side says just the opposite of what you just said however. They say that since all captains are paid the same, the company would go with more Barbie jets since a 747 captain and a RJ captain would be paid the same.. I fail to follow THAT logic.. but.. what you say seems more likely to me.. except that big airplanes are expensive. who kjnows. Interesting though.... My POV is that aircraft purchases are a management decision, and we have no say in that process. meh.. I'm not gonna get into that discussion here since it is not really germane to this one.. but it is interesting that your current rates are an extension of the -500 rates...

shoelu

Well, perhaps you do it very differently at Delta, but at SWA we do it by aircraft type. We have rates for specific different types of aircraft. As I understand it the 767 and the 787 are completely different aircraft and are type certificated as such. If Boeing type certificates the MAX as a different aircraft our CBA states that a re-opener will be required since we only have rates of pay for the airframes I listed previously. The -500 rates are the same as the -800 rates, so yes I think the MAX rates will be an extension of the -500, but I would guess you already knew that and are trying to make it sound sensational.

EWRflyr

Hey, don't forget us United-Continental pilots who are in tough negotiations trying to "take it back" as well. We are all counting on each other.

My philosophy still remains the same: just because some other company (airline in this case) can't manage the business properly and files for bankruptcy doesn't mean the rest of that industry (other PROFITABLE airlines in this case) can't get pay raises.

UCAL Mgmt: "Well, you know AMR filed for Chapter 11."
Union: "What's your point?"
UCAL Mgmt: "The point is their high costs made them lose money."
Union: "So? Our low costs lead us to a $1.5 billion profit this year."
UCAL Mgmt: "Hey, you know we could order some new planes!"
Union: "Great! While your at it, FUPM!"

tsquare

No.. no sensationalism.. just trying to understand if you can raise the bar, and if not.. why. That's all. And are you saying that a 737 is a 737 is a 737? Variant has no bearing on pay? I certainly hope that is not the case, because we have 737-900s coming with 200+ seats... But when an industry is looking at the "leader" we expect to be led. Spin it how you want.

I really didn't finish my thought about the 787 vis-a-vis the 767. What I meant to say is that it essentially seats the same number of people, but has greatly increased range. However, it still has 2 throttles, 2 pilots yada yada yada...

tsquare

+1. WE are expecting big things from UCal too

V169

It will still be a 737-700 or -800 flying the same stage length so asking 10-15% more would be totally idiotic - an across the board COLA raise for all would be a better target in the Section 6. Swa has said nothing about buying -900s.

shoelu

Perhaps you can get in touch with Boeing and ask them how they will type certificate the MAX, then share it with the rest of us then we will all know if we will be negotiating a new rate for the MAX. Which part of this do you not understand? Is it the part that we have pay rates for different types of aircraft, or that we don't yet know how the MAX will be type certificated? It all seems relatively simple to understand. Does Delta not have similar language in their CBA? Does it not state that re-openers are only required for an aircraft not currently in the contract?

tsquare

You do not have different "types" You have different "variants". Look at your license. 717 excepted.

And as far as having to reopen for new aircraft.. that was given away a few years ago. Long stupid story that I am sure interests you not.

tsquare

Fair enough.

shoelu

You are absolutely incorrect. They are in fact type certificated differently. They do share a common type rating. The 757 and 767 are definitely certificated as different aircraft although they share a common type rating. The CRJ 50, 70 and 90 seaters carry a common type rating but are type certificated as different aircraft. If the aircraft certification lists it as a different aircraft other than the 737-300, -500 or -700 then we will be able to require a re-opener as per our CBA. If SWA decides to fly anything other than the above listed 737's, we are able to negotiate new rates for an airframe not currently listed specifically in our CBA. If you decided to negotiate that right away, how in the world do you decide the pay rate for a new aircraft. Do you just have to take whatever they give you for a pay rate then wait for section 6 to re-negotiate that rate?