Big Decision to Make
09-15-2017, 07:14 PM
#1
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 6
Big Decision to Make
Negotiations are like a game of chess. In this game, Spirit management has made a move that, for all intents and purposes, leaves us with only two options.
This is not debatable. We have only two options. We can dig in our heels and wait...indefinitely, or we can move toward their position and get a TA. Despite what many believe, there exists no immediate motivating factor to get the company to move toward us. Could that change? Maybe...maybe not.
Those who think we can get everything we want, that we "deserve" the best work rules in the industry, as well as the same pay as the legacy carriers may just want to wait. That's fine but you must consider that you are sacrificing money in doing so. A lot of money. There are always sacrifices in any successful negotiation so it may be worth it to you. The plus side to waiting is that status quo applies to both parties. We get to keep our current QOL, however, we will continue to get paid 45% less (give or take) than our peers.
Not to put too fine a point on it but to get an understanding of the cost of waiting, calculate your pay at current rate vs the rate the company has offered and then calculate that over the next 2-3 years. (It is well within the realm of reasonable likelihood that we will not get a contract within the next 3 years if we hold to our ask.) How much of the difference do you think you will recoup with retro-pay?
First, forget about full retro pay...It will not happen...it never happens. There is a reason it is called a "signing bonus " and not retro-pay. Consider the current "signing bonus" offer. It averages only $35k per pilot. After taxes, that's about $22K. That's just an average. The distribution of the $60M will be decided by the MEC. It will not be equal. Some will get much more but most will get less. For the sake of argument, if a 5-year captain were to get the full $35K today, he will have lost at least $78,000 over 2 years. That is using only 72 hours per month, no extras so the actual number is much higher. That, also, does not take into account the new 401K direct contribution offer. This scenario only gets worse as the clock continues to tick.
On the other side we have those of you who are willing to give up some QOL in exchange for the higher pay now. That is fine as well but you need to consider what that QOL change means to you and your family. How much is that change worth? For some it will be worth it. For others, it will not. I know pilots here who would gladly keep status quo pay for the rest of their careers rather than give up one work rule or accept PBS. I know others with very different priorities.
You may think I am wrong. You may think that I am full of crap but I assure you...I am not. We will NEVER get released for self-help by the NMB. We will NEVER be allowed to legally strike. This is a fact. If you think otherwise, you do not understand the process in our current environment.
You may be asking, "Why do you say we will never get released?" It goes back to the game of chess analogy and the chess move I spoke about in the opening paragraph. It is very simple and undeniable. Whether you think it's fair or not is irrelevant. The mediator was clear. The total net compensation offered by the company represents a historic increase. In other words, no company in the history of collective bargaining negotiations has ever offered an increase in total compensation of that magnitude. You think that's because we get paid so much less than our peers? Irrelevant. You think it's not enough? Irrelevant. What the mediator thinks is the only thing that is relevant. Her bar is the only one that needs to be reached...period.
The company reached it. They have done the one thing that is required to stay any chance of release by the NMB. They made an offer that exceeds the NMB's reasonability test. It's not checkmate but it is a stalemate.
Each of us has only one question to ask ourselves.
Do we keep status quo QOL and pay indefinitely or do we sacrifice some QOL in exchange for the compensation increase? It really is that simple. We have no immediate leverage. You may say that the company needs a contract for growth or for a possible sale or merger. You can say that, and you might be right, but that is speculation only.
How long can Spirit survive without a new pilot contract? What do you think? Be honest with yourselves and ask if you are willing to wait that long.
You may have come to a conclusion as to where I stand on this issue based on what I have written but your conclusion would not be correct. I remain undecided. I am torn. I very much want and need the pay increase, yes, but I also want and need the QOL I have experienced in the years I have been at Spirit.
Which is more important to me, my family and my future endeavors? I am still asking myself this question. I hope you do the same.
I am not trying to influence your decision, a decision I myself have yet to make, but I feel that it's important for everyone to understand the reality of our situation. Our union reps attempted to convey that reality on the All Call yesterday. I fear that it fell on many deaf and angry ears.
However you choose to handle the upcoming survey is entirely up to you and between you and your family. So long as you approach the questions from the position of actual reality and not perceived reality we should all come out better for it in the end.
Each of us needs to make our own decision. We are a collective so we all suffer or benefit (a little of both perhaps) together.
I wish us all luck and prosperity and may fortune favor the bold.
This is not debatable. We have only two options. We can dig in our heels and wait...indefinitely, or we can move toward their position and get a TA. Despite what many believe, there exists no immediate motivating factor to get the company to move toward us. Could that change? Maybe...maybe not.
Those who think we can get everything we want, that we "deserve" the best work rules in the industry, as well as the same pay as the legacy carriers may just want to wait. That's fine but you must consider that you are sacrificing money in doing so. A lot of money. There are always sacrifices in any successful negotiation so it may be worth it to you. The plus side to waiting is that status quo applies to both parties. We get to keep our current QOL, however, we will continue to get paid 45% less (give or take) than our peers.
Not to put too fine a point on it but to get an understanding of the cost of waiting, calculate your pay at current rate vs the rate the company has offered and then calculate that over the next 2-3 years. (It is well within the realm of reasonable likelihood that we will not get a contract within the next 3 years if we hold to our ask.) How much of the difference do you think you will recoup with retro-pay?
First, forget about full retro pay...It will not happen...it never happens. There is a reason it is called a "signing bonus " and not retro-pay. Consider the current "signing bonus" offer. It averages only $35k per pilot. After taxes, that's about $22K. That's just an average. The distribution of the $60M will be decided by the MEC. It will not be equal. Some will get much more but most will get less. For the sake of argument, if a 5-year captain were to get the full $35K today, he will have lost at least $78,000 over 2 years. That is using only 72 hours per month, no extras so the actual number is much higher. That, also, does not take into account the new 401K direct contribution offer. This scenario only gets worse as the clock continues to tick.
On the other side we have those of you who are willing to give up some QOL in exchange for the higher pay now. That is fine as well but you need to consider what that QOL change means to you and your family. How much is that change worth? For some it will be worth it. For others, it will not. I know pilots here who would gladly keep status quo pay for the rest of their careers rather than give up one work rule or accept PBS. I know others with very different priorities.
You may think I am wrong. You may think that I am full of crap but I assure you...I am not. We will NEVER get released for self-help by the NMB. We will NEVER be allowed to legally strike. This is a fact. If you think otherwise, you do not understand the process in our current environment.
You may be asking, "Why do you say we will never get released?" It goes back to the game of chess analogy and the chess move I spoke about in the opening paragraph. It is very simple and undeniable. Whether you think it's fair or not is irrelevant. The mediator was clear. The total net compensation offered by the company represents a historic increase. In other words, no company in the history of collective bargaining negotiations has ever offered an increase in total compensation of that magnitude. You think that's because we get paid so much less than our peers? Irrelevant. You think it's not enough? Irrelevant. What the mediator thinks is the only thing that is relevant. Her bar is the only one that needs to be reached...period.
The company reached it. They have done the one thing that is required to stay any chance of release by the NMB. They made an offer that exceeds the NMB's reasonability test. It's not checkmate but it is a stalemate.
Each of us has only one question to ask ourselves.
Do we keep status quo QOL and pay indefinitely or do we sacrifice some QOL in exchange for the compensation increase? It really is that simple. We have no immediate leverage. You may say that the company needs a contract for growth or for a possible sale or merger. You can say that, and you might be right, but that is speculation only.
How long can Spirit survive without a new pilot contract? What do you think? Be honest with yourselves and ask if you are willing to wait that long.
You may have come to a conclusion as to where I stand on this issue based on what I have written but your conclusion would not be correct. I remain undecided. I am torn. I very much want and need the pay increase, yes, but I also want and need the QOL I have experienced in the years I have been at Spirit.
Which is more important to me, my family and my future endeavors? I am still asking myself this question. I hope you do the same.
I am not trying to influence your decision, a decision I myself have yet to make, but I feel that it's important for everyone to understand the reality of our situation. Our union reps attempted to convey that reality on the All Call yesterday. I fear that it fell on many deaf and angry ears.
However you choose to handle the upcoming survey is entirely up to you and between you and your family. So long as you approach the questions from the position of actual reality and not perceived reality we should all come out better for it in the end.
Each of us needs to make our own decision. We are a collective so we all suffer or benefit (a little of both perhaps) together.
I wish us all luck and prosperity and may fortune favor the bold.
09-15-2017, 07:48 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Position: Bus CA
Posts: 658
Nice first post WorktoPlay, {cough} Management troll.
The first "reasonable" offer by the company is never the last offer. Keep bumping up your offer, management, you might get there before a strike. Spirit was literally the last company to have a pilot strike, so trying to convince your pilot group that there will NEVER be another pilot strike is like saying another hurricane will never hit Florida, the day after Irma passed.
The first "reasonable" offer by the company is never the last offer. Keep bumping up your offer, management, you might get there before a strike. Spirit was literally the last company to have a pilot strike, so trying to convince your pilot group that there will NEVER be another pilot strike is like saying another hurricane will never hit Florida, the day after Irma passed.
09-15-2017, 07:54 PM
#8
Man in a Suitcase
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 180
Originally Posted by Mozekian
What part of "not posting on forums" and not negotiating in public don't you understand?
Seriously, it is just that simple.
Seriously, it is just that simple.
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