^^^^This x infinity!!!

I also agree. They say seniority is everything, and this is why. We all had to pass through the low seniority danger zone at one point or another. Just another part of chasing golden carrots.

It’s a reduced average line value. Settle down

JB did not sign a new concessionary contract. It’s a LOA for a specific period of time that expires on May ‘21. I wouldn’t sign a concessionary contract for sure, but a fair temporary compromise to save furloughs? I definitely would. I’m mid seniority so not worried about getting furlough myself , but can’t be an assh*le and say “screw the junior guys”.
It’s highly likely JB will be among the few (maybe the only) pax carrier than won’t furlough thru the pandemic.Pilots will get back their original contract in May ‘21 and many families will spared.

Correct. Let’s all wait to see the details, but it won’t be concessions. JetBlue’s furlough section of the contract is pretty strong and that’s why I think you see the company going this route. For instance myself having 4 years seniority, plus my PTO would earn me about 7 months pay if I was furloughed.

Care Bear is just sour grapes that he left allegiant to go to the bottom of your list and now faces furlough, where if he stayed here he'd be in good shape, even with a furlough.

Allegiant has said several times now they they aren't planning to furlough, unless the second wave results in more lockdowns, but that probably holds true for everyone. If there are more lockdowns there will be some airline liquidations.

Allegiant has zero international flights. The closest we get to international is foreign nationals driving across the border to catch our flights in places like Bellingham WA, Grand Forks ND, Ogdensburg NY, Niagra Falls, El Paso, and McAllen TX. All of that has completely dried up, but was probably only 10% or less of our total operation.

Ok skippy, no need to get upset. That’s why I said I have no idea what JB negotiated. I just stated that I wasn’t willing to discuss concessions. Besides that, isn’t a reduced line value the same as taking a pay cut? Just calling it something different? Same thing could be achieved by reducing hourly pay and keeping line guarantee.

I’m at the very bottom of the list. I’ll take that furlough to avoid concessions. I’ve been in the regionals since 2012 and played that game.

no. The answer is no. Send me home for a while but absolutely.... NO.

In that case whats the difference than us taking VIL every month. It’s a pay cut right?

I can’t recall but either Fedex or UPS has this exact furlough protection in their contract. Don’t be so quick to dismiss the idea as it has the potential to prevent much disruption that maybe you haven’t considered. Displacements and downgrades come to mind.

Not exactly. It is working less hours for less money though.


So you get to fly more hours at a reduced pay? That WOULD be a decrease in compensation, offset by making you work more hours.


Not exactly advocating for either of those options, but most people can distinguish between the two. And one would maintain the same hourly wage which - when the hours came back up - would self correct. Either the ALV would be increased or there would be more premium pay. The other wouldn’t necessarily do that.

That’s a personal choice my friend. Not unilaterally imposed on anyone.

nah son. Keeping hourly pay and reducing hours you still just as valuable, just working less. Reducing hourly rate and keeping the same credit window makes you less valuable.

Imposed on everyone? explain to me how reducing our ALV makes any difference to reserves or those who bid min line value so they can work little as possible? For example, for July in LAS, our ALV is 74 hrs. If you reduced it down to 72 or 65, those credit hrs has to go somewhere else, which is other pilots. It then requires more lines and more reserve. By reducing the ALV you're woking less for less pay, which is why i brought up the example of VIL. You still get your guarantee of 72 hrs at a current rate even if your line valve is below 72. If you're not happy of 74 hrs for ALV (or whatever it is for that month). pick up a trip from IOT or DOT then. All that LOA is doing is taking those extra credit hrs and spreading it out, which require more staffing. Our historic ALV has been 78 ish and now it's around 74, and no one is complaining but, if we take it down and still keep guarantee pay and pay rates so it protect junior pilots, it's a concession? :rolleyes:

I pulled this up from another thread that explains it, the only difference is our line holder and reserve guarantee is at 72 hrs.

LMAO!!!! 😂😂😂 it seriously humors to no end the butt hurt by some AAY folks towards those that leave. If I get furloughed I get furloughed. I absolutely have ZERO regrets, bud. Believe it or don’t, I could care less.

That place sucked so so much ass it’s not even funny. If it didn’t blow, wtf is the bottom 300 a revolving door? Why did only 24 people out of 2000+ leave Spirit for “greener pastures” last year?

When the DSM base was announced (which is yet to actually open) I just laughed my ass off. You can choose to believe that I somehow have massive regrets leaving a ghetto operation or not. I could care less. You do you, homie.

Ill show you my schedules and the flexibility to do virtually anything I want to do and it will make sense pretty damn quick why Im
here, as well as other ex AAY.

Have fun continuously getting bent over by Maury and Co. Good riddance.

VIL is a choice to bid. If I want no obligation but make some $$ still, that is my choice. No one is making me bid a VIL line. I do it because I can afford to. The union isn’t forcing it on me. I can bid a line instead.
On that note, pay me 50 hrs a month until 65 and I’ll be happy to save someone from getting furloughed. Lol

Whatever way you look at it, you are still making less at the end of the day. It comes from somewhere.

No question. It is a transfer of flying (and the associated pay that goes with it) from the senior guys/gals to the junior guys/gals. But from the management standpoint it’s sort of a zero sum game except for training costs incurred or averted.

Reducing ALV by working less and getting paid is unacceptable to some. However, they can drop an unproductive trip in IOT. So they can work less and get paid less, and the trip gets assigned to a reserve later on, that’s acceptable.

Regardless of one’s viewpoint, it better go to the pilot group for a vote and not unilaterally imposed. We’ve already been down that road of a MEC chairman making decisions for the whole group and that didn’t go over very well....

Still waiting for my quid....

I’m more wary of the precedent it sets, especially with this company. Give them an inch, they’ll want another mile. We lower ALV, they say okay that’ll protect 200, but if you pause DOS+3/4 that’ll protect more..... You see where I’m going???

That’s called seniority.

I agree with you 100%

Although, reducing ALV isn’t really giving anything as we don’t have a min ALV in our contract. It’s based on historical averages. We do have a max precisely because they would want to make it as high as possible in a normal market. High ALV mean less days off and less pilots doing the same flying.

I don’t know the specifics of JetBlues line construction language or the LOA so I can’t speak to that.

I think VOLUNTARY programs like the VILs are a good place to start.

My understanding is southwest offered something like 50hrs or pay per month on their trips for pay scale for “up to” FIVE YEARS with health care and retirement contribution. Also if you are over 55 years old you could take an early out which was something like 60hrs per month until age 65 with health care. From a company that has never had a furlough but also single fleet like us.

Make the offer good enough and plenty of folks will volunteer. Heck long term VIL with retirement contribution and health care removes a lot of risk to take extended family time, start a business you never had time too before or couldn’t take the risk of quitting flying, or just catch up on living life. YOLO!

oh and still waiting on my quid

Can you just give me your last name so I can call in sick if I'm paired with you.

I know seniority is a hard thing to grasp for the I need to have it now, millennial mindset generation. I know it’s hard to hear the truth and not get a participation trophy. But I’m actually a decent guy to fly with. I don’t flight instruct. I let you learn doing it your way and do what works for you. I usually pick up the tab the entire trip for all first year guys that don’t act entitled. I’d also be the first to take an early out to let you have your piece of the pie. 30 years as a commercial pilot is starting to lose it’s charm.
JetBlue might have been a better choice for you?

[emoji122] elegant response!


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I can also add that my name didn’t even make it on the anti social behavior Capt’s list. So at least I have that going for me!

after reading this post I also want to be able to call in sick for this guy

Don’t worry, I retire in a few years. Then you can be the guy no one wants to fly with. 😁

it’s like they say...

you either die young, or live long enough to see yourself become the boomer

This is like the guys who feel the need to mention that they are “laid back” in the briefing. It’s just isn’t so.

And I doubt anyone at Spirit is just now figuring out how seniority works although this place has more qualities of a regional airline than I care to admit.

I just came from a regional, only shared quality I’ve seen is the great pilot group. This place is a dream come true :D

I think Spirit and some of the other domestic carriers can take advantage on the other side of this virus while the Big 3 retreat. That can’t happen if you have 10%-20% of your pilots on the street and there’s probably about a two year window for that. Seniority is obviously everything in this business, but I think that’s why a lot of senior Jetblue guys have been respective to spreading out the wealth with an immediate snapback when business returns to normal. We’ll see the details in a couple weeks.

I'm on team Mtnbikemike. Sounds experienced and wise to me.

Put me on the “I want to fly with this guy list!”

I’d just like to to work, and I don’t care who I fly with. Just going flying would be nice.

same. We are all different. Learn to play in the sandbox. In 8 years I’ve never been so triggered by a different set of ideals or opinions that I felt the need to call in sick and stay home until someone I deemed worth flying with came along.

You certainly like to bash me every chance you get. I noticed in your last dig, you referred to me as an idiot. Considering you walked away from American and are now looking at possible furlough from an ACMI type 36th St Miami operation, I wonder who the idiot is?

so true so true

I do not have a dog in this fight, but I have been following your Envoy posts since their inception. Without bickering - introduce me any financial advisor who would ever advocate continuing a job (Envoy) whose total compensation is <50% to that of Spirit's. NPV is a real thing, and I would much rather make 2-3x more money now, verses continue making Envoy money for 5-7 more years and then go to AA.

You spelled Envoy wrong.