It absolutely is working. It’s why our attrition is through the roof. It’s the only reason management is even talking to us right now!!!


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if it were working, we’d have more pay. You might argue that it WILL work but just hasn’t worked YET, but if you do that you still have to answer the question:

How long will this have to not work before you admit it’s not working? Because until you see it on a pay slip, it isn’t working.

Why do you think management wants to raise only first year pay? That’s your proof that it’s working. These things take time and if the NC is to be believed it’s moving at warp speed right now comparatively to other times. Just because it hasn’t worked yet means nothing. Give it some time. The pressure is building and the C suite is starting to squirm. Besides, nobody is forced to come work for Spirit at these wages. Everyone is hiring, people have choices.

Y’all still arguing with that guy? LMAO

Man you are just ate up with dumb. If management were allowed to just raise 1st year pay, do you think they would be negotiating anything right now? Nope, we would be on the slow roll with punt after punt till Jetblue takes over. Management is already checked out as it is. They are only doing this in order not to implode the place so they can get their $$$$.

Truer words have never been spoken on APC. Btw, CincoDeMayo, I’ll take this opportunity to say I’m a fan.

Management “allowed to raise first year pay” is a tacit admission that it is the NK pilot group, not management, that is screwing over our first year pilots.

You know, it’s funny, AS doesn’t screw over their junior pilots, but AS just got a much better payscale than NK. B6 doesn’t screw over their junior pilots, but they have a higher payscale than NK. None of the big four screw over their first year pilots, but they all have higher payscales than NK.

I again ask the question:

How long must this tactic not work before you’ll admit it’s not working? Because it sure hasn’t worked yet.

Good first year pay and insurance is great. However, it's ONE YEAR. If you really want to be here and it's worth it, you'll slog it out for one year on sub par pay just like the rest of us did. And with at least half the list having done it at $38.50/hr or less.

I suggest you get on the next yellow plane to FLL and Uber over to Miramar. Bendo will welcome you in with open arms.

No kidding, that guy takes "dumb" to a whole new level!

Yeah, yeah, I know. You didn’t have a school bus, you had to walk both ways to elementary school, five miles, and uphill both ways. And in the snow.

Your argument is intellectually insane. What applies to the first year being one year applies to the second being one year as well. If cr@ping on the first year guys is such a good idea, why not increase the leverage by cr@ping on the second year guys? And the third? Because every year is one year up until 12 and over.

And if it’s been such a damn wonderful form of leverage, WHY HASN’T IT WORKED? Why doesn’t NK have payscales at least equal to those of places that DON’T cr@p on their new hires.

How long must it not work before you’ll give up the arrogance and admit it’s not working?

The time to change it was in 2018 and I voted no for this reason among others. Now it’s in our favor so you don’t change it on its own.

I don't give a **** if it's working or not. I'm personally against any pay raises for year one pilots if all pilots aren't given equivalent raises.

As is 99% of the group. The union covers dues paying years 2-12, the company can provide pay to those on "probation".

If a policy doesn’t work, why WOULD you support it?
Newbie hazing?

So whether the tactic is effective or not is irrelevant to “99% of the group?

They just get their kicks watching newbies struggle on training pay with no insurance? And you think that’s a good way to treat your fellow professionals?

I don’t know why you can’t just come to terms with the fact that two things can be true at once. Our 1st year pay should be higher AND the only reason management is at the table right now is because our 1st year/training pay is so horrendous. What do you suggest we do? Agree to let management just raise 1st year pay? Lol c’mon man just concede defeat here. Stop trying to make the argument that we would have just as much or more leverage right now if we had industry average 1st year pay. We wouldn’t. It doesn’t make it right but it also is the main reason we’re even having discussions with management right now. It is what it is. Now we can argue about what the right thing is to do at the negotiating table for 1st year guys going forward (I agree with you we need to take care of them) but for you to continue to twist yourself into a pretzel and try and convince everybody that 1st year pay isn’t the only reason that management is at the table right now is just ridiculous.

Excargo, Your gripe about first year pay is noble, and it’s a valid point that’s felt by me and others. It’s not just 1st year pay, it’s every year along the longevity line that’s below the industry, 1st year being the worst. It would be better if we had 1st year AND every other year at the industry level, but we don’t, and that’s not because of the union. Yes the union decided how to divvy up the pay that was given by management, but it’s not as though the option was their to match Alaska or Delta or any other group that pay is in line with the industry. After years of negotiations we ended up with a financial package that was way below the bigger airlines. Decisions were made and it is what it is. Higher first year pay could have been negotiated, but it would have been at the expense of other years, which are already low. It’s always better to be at an airline that decides it’s in their best interest to pay appropriately (Delta, Southwest, United, JB, Alaska, American, FedEx and more). Unfortunately for us Spirit did not feel the need to pay us appropriately. The silver lining is that attracting new hires has, as of recently, become much more difficult and attrition has gone through the roof. Spirit management has painted themselves in a corner and would desperately love to raise only 1st year pay to alleviate it. So while it might seem noble to do it, it would be giving away our biggest piece of leverage. And it would be completely unfair to those that are just getting of 1st year pay that would not benefit at all. The whole pilot group deserves a raise, not just year 1.

I’m equally puzzled why you and others like you can’t even address the question of whether or not this supposed tactic is effective. AS has a new contract. I don’t particularly like some of their QOL issues, but their management certainly came to the table and their payscales are far superior to NK. B6 has an attrition problem and their payscales are superior to ours - again without screwing over their newbies. The Big Four all have payscales above ours and are in active negotiations - all without screwing over their newbies. So what evidence is there that we wouldn’t be at the negotiating table if we weren’t screwing over our newbies?

As I have repeated, “How long does this have to not work before you’ll concede it’s not going to work?”

Even more puzzling is this; if you and the others actually believe the path to success in negotiations is screwing over our junior troops, why do you get so upset when I say we are screwing over our junior troops? If indeed the intention is to deter people from coming to NK or to increase first year attrition by treating them like cr@p, I would think you would want someone pointing out to potential new hires on a continuing basis that they will be making sort of minimum wage training pay, have no insurance, and pointing out to new hires how much better newbies are treated elsewhere to deter people from being recruited and to increase first year attrition. If all of you are so damn sure you are doing the right thing, why do you get so upset when I point out exactly what you ARE doing?

If you really believe that’s the way to go, it seems like my efforts could only assist you.

I’ve never claimed that ONLY first year pay ought to be raised. But again I ask; “How long does screwing over first year people not have the desired result before you decide screwing over first year people isn’t helpful?”

Or is that some cult or religious tenet that nobody can ever be convinced isn’t effective?

As someone on first year pay, I hate it. But… Alaska was in negotiations for years and had to vote on a strike authorization to finally get their increase. JetBlue gets paid more but lacks QOL provisions that we have (I bet management would raise pay if we agreed to give them full control of the reserve grid!). We have been in negotiations for… two months. These things take some time, and we will not know if you are correct or not for several more months. But I tend to agree with everyone else. The crazy low training pay and first year pay is likely a major factor forcing management to the table. We can’t provide “proof” other than the fact that their initial proposal was to just raise first year pay.

Did you read my post? I never said any of this. I’ve never made the argument that we should “screw over 1st year guys” as a negotiating tactic. I’m just asking you to acknowledge reality here. I literally said in my post that I think we should negotiate industry standard compensation for 1st year guys going forward. That does not change the fact that we are currently sitting at the table with an unprecedented amount of bargaining dates and the main driver behind that is the fact that management is unable to get enough bodies in the door. Alaska got a deal after 3+ years at the table and requesting mediation. We are meeting with a hostile management group multiple times per month in early openers. If they are able to drag this out for 3+ years like Alaska did then you’ll have a point. But I’m betting they won’t, and if so one of the major pressure points here is 1st year pay. I’m not arguing that it’s morally right or a “tactic” that should be implemented going forward or anything of the sort.

“Screwing over” first year pay isn’t a tactic deployed by the union to acquire a new contract. It’s an opportunity presented by management’s cheapskate tendencies. Your frustration towards your fellow pilots is misplaced.

I’ll answer your question with a question. How much of a raise to 1st year pay would justify giving away the biggest bargaining chip we have and “screwing over” the rest of the pilot group?

Shortsighted
 

Our pilot group has an enormous amount of chronologically young folks. I fly with FO's under 30 on a regular basis. Suffering for one year financially pales in comparison to being stuck as the lowest paid 12th year captain for more than 20 to 30 years. The math just doesn't make sense when considering the long term.

Just wait until you've been the lowest compensated narrow body 12th year captain pay for the last 20 years and get back to us on the hand wringing over first year pay. I can't believe we have people in our group that don't squarely put attraction and attrition on the shoulders of the folks that actually are paid to make those decisions and it isn't the line slime's responsibility.

If the JCBA goes through my above comments may not carry as much weight, due to what I imagine will be enormous stagnation in the ranks due to inflation and recession but we have to fight what's in front of us today, and move forward as though the purchase will fail. We are not bargaining the SLI and JCBA yet.

To be clear Alaska was in negotiation for years through a pandemic and an airline industry asking for bailouts. We cannot use their timeline for any kind of measuring stick in todays pilot market. Also they were negotiating the entire contract. We are only looking at compensation right now which is black and white. Work rules will be in the JCBA. Anyone that wants you to think it should take years to negotiate compensation only is trying to lower your expectations.

Absolutely. I more meant it as, two months of negotiations is not long enough for excargo to claim that first year pay hasn’t worked as leverage.

No one should have to “suffer” through a year of poor financial compensation. What kind of person thinks that way? That’s exactly the reason recruiting is going to flat line. No one will come here to “financially suffer” for a year when they can live comfortably where they are at till they get picked up by a legacy.

Having lower first year pay is a management tactic to incentivize people to stay more than a year with much higher pay on the horizon. I don’t disagree with that kind of strategy but the current gap is exceptionally wide and could be narrowed a bit.

Bottom line it should never be an acceptable idea to have first years suffer just to feed the top of the pay scale. It should never be a bargaining chip in the first place their are other bargaining powers available to the union

Two months? Excuse me, but that contract was signed in March of 2018. That’s four and a half years that screwing the newbs hasn’t resulted in any pay scale improvement. They could have raised the pay scale at any time during that period if we’d really had all that much leverage.

And judging by this quote from some self-anointed skygod a few pages back:

It hasn’t worked for a considerably longer period than that - additional years in fact.

So I’ll ask you the same question that so far NOBODY supporting the policy of screwing the newbies has had the cojones to answer;

How long must this not work before you are willing to admit that it WON’T work? Because it damn sure hasn’t worked yet.


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No one has to suffer. With the amount of hiring at almost every airline, the higher than ever regional wages, and most airlines at almost double Spirits 1st year pay, people are suffering less now than they have at almost any-point in any of our lifetimes at the airlines. Ideally, yes it would be higher pay, you can place your frustrations at management, not the union. Management, by the way wants only as of recently to raise first year pay not as a change of heart, but because without it they cannot make money.

Well put. “Suffer,” hilarious.

I’ll take my “get off my lawn” moment and laugh at the new definition of what “suffering” is now for this industry.

Spirit ALPA is more than happy to sign a new deal tomorrow to make our pilots, first year included, the highest paid pilots on the planet. Just waiting for Ted and Bendo

I would pay good money to see you say that, in person, to anyone who's been around this industry since before about 2015.

What do you think you’d (they’d) do to him? Yell at him? Get physical? Do nothing? Go on a rant about why you’re (they’re) not leaving Spirit and how it’s recession proof? Combination of the above?

The steering tiller is fine on the 190. And there are definitely rollaboard storage areas up front in the 190s, just not any room for a jumpseater’s. I have plenty of gripes about the 190. But those aren’t any of them. I agree the cramped/loud flight deck isn’t great and the ram horn isn’t great. Both the bus side stick, and the CRJ and 737 yokes I’ve used, are better…but at the end of the day ram horn vs regular yoke doesn’t really annoy me…but not having a tray table does.

Ha, no doubt. Some of these guys have NO idea.

Worst thing about the E190 besides the seat and seating position are the pairings/trips...

I don't care how nice it hand-fly's if I have to do it 4 legs a day nearly every day. I have that Tshirt.

I'd whip out my man parts and slap him across the face.

Not saying that we don't deserve more, because we definitely do (especially FOs), but complaining in public about your current situation is never a good idea. There's always someone out there who has (had) it way worse than you.

Not a picture we needed, but laughing would be appropriate. 🤣

GMAB!
 

Hey people, for just $5 a month you can feed a Spirit family on first year pay. Please stop being selfish basta*ds and adopt their family. Your donation is 100% tax deductible! Please forward your donation to the following link: Https://firstyerpeyyy/spiritfamily .....Cheryl Crow commercial to follow!

Why am I annoyed you didn’t buy that url and create a well running yet funny and entertaining website?

Sorry, I'm too lazy.