Bases on current earnings and statements at DAL/UAL your statement is false, of course the business environment isn’t static and that could all change next year.

The LCC's in general start small and fly from periphery cities and markets to avoid direct competition with the established carriers. They have new/cheap labor forces and very low costs.

Then the LCC will start to mature so it will order bigger/larger planes on an attempt to spread out rising costs across more available seats. It'll have trouble operating from the periphery with such big planes so it will migrate towards the cities and markets of the legacy carriers.

Legacy carriers will not just take a new entrant standing still, so they will match capacity and even fly markets at a loss to limit the influx of the LCC into the main city markets. Both will lose money on a market, but the legacies will make it up in other places.

LCC will now decide it needs to be more like a legacy carrier instead of an LCC to compete. This is where we are at now. In a way, all of the LCC's in the US have followed this general path. Some are just more further along than others. Breeze is at the beginning and Spirit has run the course.

JBLU is the only new carrier that has began as a direct competitor to the majors right in JFK and other major cities. They began with a nicer product and didn't just compete on low price model initially.

Which an exactly why M and A of smaller carriers must be allowed. The current market is rigged.

I think they definitely started out defending their turf, but then discovered that there is money to be made in coach. They're attracting new customers who are also spending good money to upgrade into economy plus sections of their cabins and it has become a significant percentage of their total revenue.

LCC's will have to adapt to this market just like the legacies adapted to the reduction in business travel bookings post pandemic. I also think that it will have to be a lot more than just bigger seats. They'll need to provide frequency, better customer service (the legacies haven't exactly set the bar that high), WiFi, inflight entertainment, etc.

But only American went all the way and matched NK customer service levels.

lol-imagine if they could live stream the fights at the gate and on board. another revenue source.

contrary to popular belief, we’re not the only ones who have passenger issues or even gate agent “customer service” issues. As you notice to be fair, I did put in quotation customer serfice. Seems like every airline has had their fair share.

It used to be allowed, that's how we got the big three, and SWA did some M&A along the way.

The current market isn't really "rigged" it's just by it's nature very difficult to break into due to both the obvious factor of economy of scale but even more so the fact that most customers prefer a large network.

Small newtork only works for annual vacation travellers, or people who happen to have a specific reason (business, elderly parent, etc) to regularly travel between two airports which don't have regular or direct service by the big airlines.

Otherwise network access, loyalty programs, and reliability win out.

Now did Lina K get paid off by the legacies to torpedo NK? That would be "rigged" but there's no actual evidence of that that I'm aware of.

Most or all of them were doing it before the pandemic. Pandemic may have amplified the effect.

Allegiant is still flying big planes from nowhere to nowhere and filling them and making money. So it might not be the LCC/ULCC model itself but rather the fact that most airlines quit following it by acting like a cheaper legacy carrier. Spirit and Frontier particularly.

I don’t know if anyone saw but looks like the ch 11 reorganization plan got pushed to Feb 13th and they delayed equity placing as well. I’m no financial guru at all but asked chat GBT but this sound like a pretty big deal their restructuring plans.

Equity placing: means a company is offering new shares of its stock to investors to raise money. This is often done to get cash quickly, usually to pay off debt, invest in operations, or fund other business needs. The shares are typically sold to institutional investors (like banks or funds) at a discounted price to attract buyers. I told GBT to analyze the most likely reason why spirits plans got delayed and it said most likely due to lack of investor confidence and the terms were not ideal for them. Idk, could be nothing but worth mentioning to you guys who might have more info or knowledge on the subject.

I’m really hoping this does not impact the approval of spirits restructuring plan on the 13th now.

if anyone else has information on how the bankruptcy proceedings are going please put it down here.

sources -

Approval rescheduled date -

https://www.investing.com/news/sec-f...y-93CH-3829241

Delayed equity placing -

https://www.tipranks.com/news/spirit...ankruptcy-exit

AI. If this post included a boob pic you idiots would spend time responding.

okay so you are saying that the information is not true or what? You don’t think a delay and funding not being secured through that channel is not interesting? Okay, suit yourself… AI is extremely powerful and is more capable then any of us at analyzing information if you give it the correct inputs.

I can give it any court document / SEC filling and have it analyze it extremely well. It’s not hard to keep up with type of stuff. I don’t have to have a law degree nor finance degree to understand how things are progressing… you should give it a try if you haven’t lately, there’s a reason America is making it a priority going forward.

just thought your pilot should know the details going on as your company is fighting to survive. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Fear not! We’ll be purchased before the end of the year!

Long after Cat and I are gone

(We’re getting deported for meowing on guard)

Yeah we know...things are bad

Thank you for sharing this ground breaking info via AI

got it. Would you like it better if I spent my days combing through filings for you instead? Sorry for providing you with the latest information occurring at your company? Did you know what equity placing was? Cool if you did, you’re among the very few in this profession who do.

If my company delayed their restructuring plan approval date and had an issue with raising the required money I would want someone to tell.

Hopefully someone on here will find the information useful in following the situation that is on going.

Just trying to help other pilots out, don’t need to get it tossed back in my face and make condescending jokes because you don’t like me using A.I to help me decipher SEC and bankruptcy documents.

It. You’re an it. Beat it; it. This forum is for humans!

I do sincerely appreciate all the info you brought forward.

and I understanding your reasoning and wanting to use AI to help you quickly solve it. The problem is I’ve used ChatGPT a lot before, and it really has no F idea what it’s talking about. It does its best but it really has no idea what is going on.

i’ve used ChatGPT on a simple medical question that’s happened to me in real life and some other scenarios and it’s it’s just doesn’t work.

What is one to do with that information? Let me rephrase that: what should one do that one was not already doing?

I know everyone loves a conspiracy theory, but if you look at facts and only facts, TC torpedoed the merger with his testimony on the stand. That’s it! Look no further!

Now, why has the BK exit plan been delayed? Who knows! Maybe the creditors see more profitable opportunities, to place their money in? Maybe they can make more money with $Trump coin? If you look at the terms of that $300M line of credit that TC just lined up, it doesn’t look like banks/creditors have confidence in the plan going forward, does it? Maybe they all just woke up and realized that a man who just blew $800M (approximately) in 2024 in a record breaking year for other airlines, isn’t the horse you want to back right now.
sorry for the negative post, but it’s time for my former colleagues to at least formulate a plan B.

Ahhh…someone’s mad they share the same seniority with a 23 year old chick.

Nope. I made a conscious choice. I still have plenty of friends at NK and hope it works out for everyone. I don’t trust the leadership. I should’ve seen it earlier, like my FOs and left when they did. Usually this forum has some adults in the room and not just children like you. Sometimes people need a nudge in the right direction, to see what’s going on right in front of them. This is my only reason for posting. You obviously have a reputation for inane comments which are commensurate with your level of intellect. I’ll make this my last post on this forum, as people like you have clearly lowered the collective IQ around here…

hey I don’t mean to **** in your cheerios but this was my experience. I came to NK for a short time, and I loved the QOL. The crews, layovers, etc was great! I thought twice about leaving just because of how happy I was with my QOL. That being said, I was also tired of hearing 10+ senior captains complain about FOs coming to NK to “get a type” and leave. They would even treated me like I didn’t know what I was doing in the airplane half the time. I got comments all the time like “so when are you leaving”… I had some conversations with many captains showing them how moving to a legacy carrier would be a better choice in the long run than staying at NK. As much as I loved NK, it was flawed. The model was flawed. The leadership was flawed. I showed captains the math on paper and I was laughed at. Many told me that the they knew for a fact NK would never disappear. Some told me I was dumb for jumping ship.
I struggled leaving at first cus I really enjoyed it there. Many times I thought I had made a mistake leaving. Funny thing, many of my colleagues that left, some felt like I did. But at the end of the day the math didn’t add up and I knew that eventually things would be better seniority wise and QOL wise at a different company… just took patience. I was as even called by two CPs before I left trying to convince me to stay. Saying that going to AA or DL was a massive mistake. They change their tune when they saw I was leaving to brown.
either way, many people were unkind to new FOs cus “you came here as a stepping stone”. I sure hope NK survives, it’s an awesome place. But if it doesn’t, I hope all those people who talked smack about so many FOs leaving will eat their words now. It’s aviation and nothing lasts forever, even I know that at brown.

To be fair, a lot of those CAs were flying with historically low time FOs who felt like they were God's gift to the aviation community because they practically skipped over the hardships of the more normative regional pilot life, and they had no problem making it known to the CAs they flew with.

It wasn't all of them by any means, but a good number of them felt like their unprecedented career progression was due to their own merits for some reason, and there was a severe sense of entitlement for them being "owed" a legacy class date instead of trying to become a better crew member at NK.

I flew with several like this and it sucked. Yeah I could have involved pro standards but with the rate of attrition it was just better to let it go because they were soon to be someone else's problem at xyx legacy.

I've been a NK captain for two years, flown with lots of junior, low time pilots, and I haven't had anyone who was arrogant or anything like that. All good people, they realize they're inexperienced, and I enjoy mentoring and helping them along.

2 whole years? Wow. Half joking, but…

The last 2 years have been a lot of ex CFI FOssnd I’ve found them to have great attitudes. They come in acknowledging they are grateful to be there and open to learning. These pilots don’t have the competitive mins for the legacy airlines so them “bailing” was never an option.

I think what the other guy was referencing was the wave before that; lots of 1-2 year regional FOs who have it “all figured out” in the right seat. These seems to have been a little more difficult. Those were the ones who were more than vocal about leaving, which is fine, but I don’t care about your future at XYZ if you can’t work the radios here in a yellow Spirit plane. Only issues I’ve ever had in over 10 years as a CA here were those FOs, with CJOs at a legacy, and have checked out here at NK and their job as a first officer

I like flying with captains like you who enjoy mentoring but sometimes not all FOs want to be mentored all the time. That sometimes turns into dictation and it gets annoying. I started at NK along with all the CFI during the wave but this was not my first job. After professionally flying for years I was shocked to see how some reserve captains just assumed that I do not know anything (and I could have been a j**k and reminded them i am typed in the airplane as well, but mostly as a new FO i just took it). Flying was turning less of a fun when a CA just sits there telling you what to do at each step before you do it (even though you know what to do). It took me a few months to start being annoying and start talking nonstop about my littlest thing i am thinking about and or going to do next in advance before they tell me what my next step should be 5 miles out. I’m all about CRM and mentoring and doing things the right way but dictation of every single aspect of my duties is something I don’t accept. Lately it’s been better but only ever had issues with reserve CA treating like i am a pax. Never had any issues with line holders. I am sure they probably had some bad experiences from new FOs but you cannot treat everyone alike based on the date they were hired.

I’d post a pic to explain this post, but googling United 767 hard landing is quicker.

“I’m typed in this plane too” Haha. That’s some arrogance man. Everyone is typed, doesn’t mean you know what you don’t know. We were all new, all behind the plane, never did I get angry and think my type rating and 400 hours in type was equivalent to the guy next to me and the thousands in type they have.

I never got angry and never thought it was equivalent either. I just said the things that annoyed me and I overcame the problem by announcing every single move I make well in advance. If the CA disagreed then I am all ears and eager to learn the reason behind it. But I did work hard to learn the airplane so assuming I don’t know anything right of the bat is something I didn’t like. Doesn’t mean I was arrogant or disrespectful. I politely and respectfully handle the situation and try my best to not hurt any egos. It is annoying but as an FO you deal with it. And around 90% CA I flew with were awesome. It’s the 10% that treated me like that. And lately that percentage has significantly reduced.

He actually doesn't sound like a an ex-FA DEI employee-preference hire who was a "special" case for the training dept. I doubt he wrecked many jets.

And you’re right. As an FO I don’t know what I don’t know in aviation but doesn’t mean CA should assume I don’t know anything. Just how having a type and 400 hours doesn’t make me a know it all, having thousands of hours doesn’t make CA a god like creature. We all try our best to learn everyday but I don’t agree with holding hands for the entire duration of the flight. If I need a hand I will gladly ask or if you see something say something. Don’t anticipate I am just sitting there day dreaming and checked out. I am sure some FOs are but not all are. But you can’t assume that as a CA because I would argue that would be arrogance. I mean clearly it’s been a thing otherwise more than one FO wouldn’t mention it on here.



Mentoring a new FO is a good thing and every CA should try and mentor new guys when they need it. But I would disagree that dictating every move your FO makes has a positive effect on them learning anything. Basically you’re just flying the ship through them. I would argue that will shut them down instead of develop critical thinking and learning. I know at times it could be tough to have faith in a new guy but maybe ask the FO what he/she thinks, it comes with being a CA and having thousands of hours. If the new guys don’t experience and you never let them make any mistake (By jumping the gun as a CA) they will never learn.



It’s not about comparing, assuming and or dictating. It’s about working together positively and I did see some CA lacking when it comes to that.



I have also came across a lot of CA with thousands of hours get comfortable doing it one way but there are multiple ways of doing things. Something as silly as getting vectored around at 10,000, ATC says descent and maintain 8000. I go VS -1000 considering our distance and here comes a voice “Use open decent” from the CA with thousands of hours. Do you have a reason why? No we use open descent. Ok well with all due respect, in that case would you like to fly us? I’ll gladly talk the radios. Same thing with using Decel point vs activating the approach (in via cases). And many other small examples that could be done safely more than just the CA way.



Oh another good example. Airplane says “More Drag” and here comes a voice “Let’s use some speed brakes okay !?!”. Well let’s talk about it: There is a decel point between us and the waypoint so airplane thinks it’s gonna slow down but the waypoint speed limit is 250. So I’ll select speed once we pass decel point thus activating the approach and not needing speed brakes as we have made the waypoint altitude restriction. Then once we pass the waypoint I’ll manage speed thus slowing us to the green dot. What do you think CAP? And there comes a look that’s not how we do it. Reminder: we are still talking about only 10% of the guys.



Maybe because of my lack of experience that keeps me from blindly believing prog page deviation and actually do the math and maybe because of that lack, I am not set in doing things one way but I do expect a CA to be open to doing things more than just one way (ofcourse considering it is safe to do so given the circumstances).

This just shows your inexperience with this industry. Nobody will won’t know if they’ve made the right move until you retire. You could be top 10% and leave Spirit, an economic downturn happens, Spirit right sizes, and you get furloughed from Brown. If you would have stayed, now all of a sudden you still think you made the right decision to leave?

Point is, you can’t plan for more than 5 years in this industry, too many variables. If you had any seniority at NK, your quality of life at the new airline will takes years to get back to what it was at NK.

So don’t sit here and criticize people that have great seniority who haven’t left. The cards will play out in a way you never though imaginable - good ways and bad ways.

Same here, and I've been a Captain at NK for almost 8 years now. The "kids" have been great, it's people closer to my age (I am almost 50) who are on their 3rd or 4th career (not 3rd or 4th airline) who have occasionally (very occasionally) presented issues. Someone who at age 40+ decides to suddenly go and play pilot can be...interesting. Again, even that has been very rare.

I am a American Platinum Pro FF. Americans service can be poor but Spirit is on a whole different level of poor.
I woukd also point out that those buying the cheap seats on the majors often don't sit in them. I buy the lowest fare available and get a immediate upgrade to any seat I want in coach. I can then normally upgrade to first for 90.00 about two weeks prior to the flight or get a free upgrade closer in.

Congratulations

You must fly NK pretty frequently as well if you’re using anecdotal evidence to compare levels of customer service.

yeah man, it’s awesome that you’re a platinum FF, and apparently a delta stock holder too? And risked your reputation coming into the NK board to tell us how bad our customer service is? Hey seriously we really appreciate you gracing us with your presence. 🙄

A great post, sailing! both informative and it has generated a seas worth of salt

This is exactly how fractional guys flex with all their points. Basically the only flex they got.