Cujo665

Well, you sure went down a rabbit hole.
Whatever 1224 may have bee doing has zero to do with the comment I made concerning an NMB single carrier petition. Not talking about ATSG or Atlas or any of them running a single transportation system.... Amazon is. (or is as close as you can be). I'd just like to see it tested before this business model takes root.

We already have Vendors flying for mainline airlines, but those mainline airlines do in fact hold 121 certificates and operate an airline. Amazon has no 121 certificate or airline of it's own, yet is managing an awful lot of operational control over what for all intensive purposes sure looks like a single transportation system.

Here is what the NMB looks at:

The Board determines the existence of a single transportation system based upon Section 19 of the Board’s Representation Manual.

Section 19.4 provides that “[a]ny organization or individual may file an application, supported by evidence of representation or a showing of interest seeking a determination whether a single system of transportation exists.”

Section 19.501 states that actions by the Carriers constitutes the existence of a single transportation system, such as published combined schedules or combined routes; standardized uniforms; common marketing, markings, or insignia; integrated essential operations such as scheduling or dispatching; centralized labor and personnel operations; combined or common management, corporate officers, and board of directors; combined workforce; and common or overlapping ownership

Who tells the ACMI's where to send the planes; Amazon
Who tells the ACMI's when to send the planes; Amazon
Who is having all the ACMI planes painted in Amazon branding, Amazon
Who is making most of the ACMI's wear Amazon uniforms; Amazon
Who owns stakes in several of the ACMI's it contracts with; Amazon

Who is going to start "

For a company not exercising operational control, they sure look like their running or planning to run an airline to me..... they're even hiring the management team now.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1055...ncc-amazon-air

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1074...control-center

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1035...vy-maintenance

Cujo665

Decent write up....

https://www.aircargonews.net/airline...ns-for-amazon/

Heavy B

They do the same thing with delivering packages through DSPs. All the risk and operational stress is shifted to a third party.

Cujo665

Package ground deliver is under NLRA, airlines are under the RLA. Single Transportation System rules under the RLA are in the post above.

It actually may be a bit of a grey area, as for the longest time Fedex Ground was RLA and UPS ground was NLRA. The consensus was that UPS started as a ground company, and later added air. Fedex was an airline from the beginning. I'll have to dig a bit to see if that one has been resolved yet, I know it was a sticky issue a number of years back. I'll look into how it turned out.... unless somebody already knows. I think they returned all ground to NLRA. This was back around 2010 IIRC

A DHL NMB decision in 2003 may come into play.

Cujo665

ground is under NLRA not RLA. RLA has clear single transportation system criteria.

Av8tr1

How is that any different from what FedEx does with MAC, Empire and all the other FedEx feeders?

iPilot

I am not an airline manager but just looking around the industry there must come a point where owning the airline makes more sense than farming it out. I mean, why isn't Sun Country just a bunch of regionals/ACMI running around on behalf of Sun Country (essentially a marketing and charter agency)? For that matter why not JetBlue, Spirit, Frontier or any company founded in the recent era?

Perhaps at some point it's just better to own the operation and tolerate the unions having that foothold. After all, Amazon is bringing the ramp crews in house. On the spectrum of labor groups that should be in-sourced versus out-sourced I'd put them above all else firmly in the outsource category.

But who knows, Amazon is brand new and not really interested in how any of this has been done before.

sidelinesam

Sun Country was founded in June of 1982 so I wouldn't say we've been founded recently. And our contract leaves a lot to be desired but I would say our scope clause is pretty strong.

iPilot

Fair enough about Sun Country specifically but that doesn't explain the others or someone creating an airline like Sun Country but using all contractors. Just saying that if outsourcing pilots was the One True Way(TM) companies like yours would of been on the scrap heap years ago replaced by marketing companies that bid out contracts to Mesa, Swift or any other dirtbag outfit operating out of the back room of Brysons Pub in Miami.

Cujo665

the other feeders aren’t flying the same fleet types. Further, Fedex does operate its own airline under its own 121 certificate.

amazon is essentially having operational control of The Who goes where and when without being an airline, without holding a 121 certificate. It’s a business model that really hasn’t existed. Flying a brand that not only isn’t an airline, but isn’t a feeder for one that is.