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When can you go below 1800RVR?

Old 03-08-2007, 07:58 PM
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Default When can you go below 1800RVR?

There is a question on this study guide. When can you go below 1800RVR? The answer supplied is If you are Cat 2 but can't you also do it once inside the FAF and have the runway threshold insight and can land with normal maneuvers?

Here's another one. What do you do if a passenger says they smell alcohol in your breath?

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Old 03-09-2007, 03:47 AM
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I think the intent of the question is, "If the RVR is reported as less than 1800, what type of approach are you legal to fly?" In which case the correct answer is CAT 2 or 3. With an 1800 RVR you would not be legal to fly any non prec, therefore your situation of having the rwy in sight after the IAF is not going to happen. In fact, with an 1800 RVR you won't even have the threshold in sight at DH on a CAT I.
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Old 03-09-2007, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Texandrvr View Post
In fact, with an 1800 RVR you won't even have the threshold in sight at DH on a CAT I.
At DA (DH is CAT 2) on a CAT 1 1800rvr approach you wouldnt be looking for the threshhold... Normally on a 1800rvr CAT 1 approach you would be looking for the approach light system, once in sight you are allowed 100 ft above TDZE... That should get you the "runway environment". If the approach doesnt end up like that, the rvr isnt 1800.
 
Old 03-09-2007, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ToiletDuck View Post
Here's another one. What do you do if a passenger says they smell alcohol in your breath?
Many companies have established procedure for this. At a former employer, upon a passenger announcing their suspicion, the crew would notify dispatch, the CP, and customer service of the situation. A customer service supervisor would then come out and discretely remove the customer from the aircraft to further discuss their beliefs. This included presenting them with a card that explained the process of an alcohol investigation, the DOT rules for alcohol and drug testing, and other pertainant info (don't remember everything that was on the card). If the passenger continued to assert their feeling, the crew would be removed from the flight for random (usually off-site testing).

Personally, if I ever had a passenger make an accusation, I'm done flying until I get tested. Period. Simply because if I don't get tested, there may be question about my fitness to fly if anything were to happen during the flight. Once I was found fit to fly (which I know I would be), I would have no problem returning to the aircraft and explaining the situation (and why we're now running 2-3 hours late to the passengers).

I do know a captain that was accussed of being drunk in Madison, WI a few years back. (Ironically, by an semi-intoxicated person as it turned out.) My company and United took legal action him for compensation due to lost revenues, delays/cancellations, and passenger inconvenience/missed connections.
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Old 03-09-2007, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MuseumDriver View Post
At DA (DH is CAT 2) on a CAT 1 1800rvr approach you wouldnt be looking for the threshhold... Normally on a 1800rvr CAT 1 approach you would be looking for the approach light system, once in sight you are allowed 100 ft above TDZE... That should get you the "runway environment". If the approach doesnt end up like that, the rvr isnt 1800.
That was exactly my point. He mentioned "runway threshold" in sight and I was pointing out that it would be impossible to have the threshold in sight at DH with 1800RVR.
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Old 03-09-2007, 07:42 AM
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Thanks Texan... agreed
 
Old 03-15-2007, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ToiletDuck View Post
There is a question on this study guide. When can you go below 1800RVR? The answer supplied is If you are Cat 2 but can't you also do it once inside the FAF and have the runway threshold insight and can land with normal maneuvers?

Here's another one. What do you do if a passenger says they smell alcohol in your breath?
If you want to be technical, as a Cat 1 aircraft you can never go below 1800 RVR, even if you get the runway in sight. One of your criteria for determining whether or not you are legal to land is to have the "inflight visibility." If tower reports 600 RVR and you land, you might have a lot of "splainin' to do Lucy."

As for the alcohol question.

1. If you have been drinking: quit and go gaurd some car parts for a living.

2. If you have not been drinking: do not fly, go straight to a doctor and get a pee test.
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:31 AM
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Wildcat...

Thats been a gray area for some time. "Inflight visibility" and RVR are two different values. For instance, the operations manual for my airline (approved by the FAA) allows for a landing if the runway environment is in sight and the "inflight visibility" is adequate. I have seen at a previous airline someone violated for landing with the reported RVR being lower than 1800.
 
Old 03-15-2007, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MuseumDriver View Post
Wildcat...

Thats been a gray area for some time. "Inflight visibility" and RVR are two different values. For instance, the operations manual for my airline (approved by the FAA) allows for a landing if the runway environment is in sight and the "inflight visibility" is adequate. I have seen at a previous airline someone violated for landing with the reported RVR being lower than 1800.
§ 91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR.

(a) Instrument approaches to civil airports. Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, when an instrument letdown to a civil airport is necessary, each person operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall use a standard instrument approach procedure prescribed for the airport in part 97 of this chapter.
(b) Authorized DH or MDA. For the purpose of this section, when the approach procedure being used provides for and requires the use of a DH or MDA, the authorized DH or MDA is the highest of the following:
(1) The DH or MDA prescribed by the approach procedure.
(2) The DH or MDA prescribed for the pilot in command.
(3) The DH or MDA for which the aircraft is equipped.
(c) Operation below DH or MDA. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, where a DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, at any airport below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DH unless—
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used; and
I haven’t seen a regulation or ops spec that supersedes this FAR. If your ops spec does not specifically say that in flight visibility is not required for landing, then this regulation still applies.

If you land and the reported visibility is below the minimums for the approach you open yourself up to the possibility of enforcement action. Remember, you are not innocent until proven guilty with the FAA. You will have to find proof that the in flight visibility was equal to or greater than the approach minimums. I don’t know about you….but I don’t carry an impartial weather observer with me on every flight.

I guess my point is, if you do land with the reported visibility below minimums you are playing Russian Roulette with your career. I would be willing to bet that 9,999 out of 10,000 landings below minimums are not investigated because they don’t result in an accident or incident. If yours does, well you have a tough row to hoe.
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Old 03-15-2007, 03:06 PM
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This brings us right back to (C)(2) of your excerpt... "flight visibility", is not RVR. If you are in a normal position to land and you have determined the "flight visibility" is adequate you have satisfied the regulation. Recently approaching an airport we had the entire runway in sight 30 miles out. With some ground fog the RVR was calling for 1200. The "flight visibility" was more than adequate.

I side with your interpretation in some aspect... I knew someone that was violated for this in a BE-1900.

Seeing that it is written in our OPS manual there is some defense should it be an issue where I work.
 
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