Paladin145

On one of my first CRJ-200 landings, I was a little off center line just before flare, but hesitant to use aileron that close to the runway. The LCA reminded me later that when pitched down 2.5 ' ( that you need in 200), your wingtips are even farther from runway. So get on the centerline BEFORE you start to flare.

Atlas Shrugged

Lots of great advice here. This is an important topic as we are getting a lot of RJ folks to the 747, and I see crosswind landing issues frequently on the line.

I am not a check airman so, I find myself having to try to explain to new people how to land the "big" jet, and I want to be a correct as possible. Unfortunately, we have had several incidents lately that did not end well.

A 747 will strike a pod at 6 degrees of bank, but that is really a lot of bank. You will feel very uncomfortable if you land with 6 degrees.

One problem I see frequently is that people stop flying the jet after touchdown. The 747 has a big tail, and you must use downwind rudder to prevent the airplane from weather-vaning. This is particularly true of the LCF which has a 7 foot taller SP tail. You must apply aileron as necessary. How much is necessary? What ever it takes, up to and including, full control input to keep the wings level.

You can land a 747 in a crab, but I have always done it like Galaxy Flyer described.

Aileron and center line discipline are your friends with the larger jets. Speed control is critical. If you get slow, GO AROUND!

galaxy flyer

Here’s a link to a FSF ALAR article on crosswinds.

https://flightsafety.org/files/alar_bn8-7-crosswind.pdf

GF

Mink

https://www.batraining.com/elearning...rses/crosswind

Free course on Global Express crosswind techniques. First 14 slides are GLEX specifics from the AFM, but after that it gets into information that's applicable to any aircraft using the wings level crab technique.

galaxy flyer

That’s the one we wrote! Vast improvement on the earlier one. Crosswind landings were a recurrent item plus lots of work in initial.

GF

Paladin145

Atlas,

If RJ pilots are not prepared, I think I know why. No focus on this key item. Here is one manual I found online...

The ***** requires traditional control inputs during a crosswind
landing. The recommended crosswind landing technique is to
combine crab and sideslip.
On final approach, a crab angle should be established with the wings
level in order to maintain the aircraft on the desired course. When
initiating the flare at 10-15 feet above the runway
surface, apply rudder to align the aircraft with the runway centerline
while simultaneously applying opposite aileron to correct for sideways
drift. After touchdown, maintain runway centerline with rudder
steering and continue to apply aileron input into the wind consistent
with aircraft speed and wind velocity.
Use caution when operating in gusty conditions. A wingtip strike could
occur if excessive (more than 8º roll) aileron correction is applied.

There is no mention of the fast roll rate of the CRJ-200, and keeping the wings flat. If you have 27 kts of wind, you will need a good deal of wing low, and may get near the limit.

Below is what I found in the ASA interview prep book.


As a simple explanation using the question from above, the pilot will wait until crossing the threshold to push the right rudder to align the nose with the runway center-line, while adding a small amount of left aileron to keep the wings level. Maintain this until touchdown. The large amount of inertia of this large airplane will keep the aircraft tracking down the runway centerline for the short amount of time until touchdown. If the pilot makes the rudder input too early, the airplane will start drifting prior to touchdown. If the pilot makes the rudder input too late, the airplane will touchdown in a crab. Both errors in timing will make for a rough touchdown.

I think the ASA explanation is better at preventing wing low landings.

Paladin145

2013: ASA: Incident: Atlantic Southeast CRJ2 at Charleston on Apr 5th 2013, wing tip strike on landing
2014: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Atlanta on Jul 16th 2014, wing tip strike on landing
2015: Air Wisconsin: Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing
2017: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Roanoke on Jan 22nd 2017, wing tip strike on landing

In my sim, only did 12 knots crosswind. No gusts. ( not sure if sim can do that.)

No mention of :

- fast roll rate of CRJ-200, and possibility to overcorrect in gusts.
- how much bank is needed with 0' crab, and max crosswind. ( what is your margin for error ? )
- Amount of crab ' that is acceptable on main gear to protect the wingtips.

No ground school on this topic. At least several wing tip strikes should have been reviewed and studied.

Atlas Shrugged

I have heard that we now have some extra landing training in the SIM for new hires. Atlas has always been a sink or swim type of outfit, and they got away with that because of where the pilots used to come from.

Those days have changed. I firmly believe that if a pilot has the aptitude and a good attitude, he can be trained. The question is how much money do you want to spend to train him? The military does it everyday.

We have pilots now who struggle to talk on the radios properly. They are not idiots, but clearly no one has taken the time to correct them in a constructive way and hold them accountable. But hey, the emperor wears no clothes...

galaxy flyer

Three out of four of those strikes had less than 10 knots of crosswind component. MHT was challenging. This is very believable—strikes are mostly about poor training in crosswind landings (sims can do gusts and strong crosswinds, but it’s still 1s and 0s in the box) and, to large extent, poor training during line operations where the real learning occurs. The elimination of pre-IOE “bounce drill” in the plane was a bad idea. Spent 3 hours doing T&Gs in the 727 for new F/Os at EAL. Pretty interesting as a new engineer, too.

Captains will flame me here, but line captains need to constructively criticize bad techniques and explain good techniques and let F/Os learn. Those that can’t or won’t are doing aviation a disservice.

GF

Paladin145

GF,

Yes, I noticed how low the wind was on those. I was surprised by that.

When I did IOE in 2002, in a DHC-8, they made sure you could fly the airplane. We weren't supposed to be at the level of a 1 year FO.

When I did IOE in 2017, the one LCA said he would sign me off only if if he didn't have to say a word about anything. Of course he was going to comment, he would have done this, or that, even though the approach was fine. He had 12,000 hours in the aircraft. It seems now after IOE you need to fly as a 1 year FO. It seems like the Captain role is to no longer assist FO's.