Crosswind Landings in a Swept Wing jet
02-25-2018, 03:58 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Paladin145
2013: ASA: Incident: Atlantic Southeast CRJ2 at Charleston on Apr 5th 2013, wing tip strike on landing
2014: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Atlanta on Jul 16th 2014, wing tip strike on landing
2015: Air Wisconsin: Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing
2017: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Roanoke on Jan 22nd 2017, wing tip strike on landing
In my sim, only did 12 knots crosswind. No gusts. ( not sure if sim can do that.)
No mention of :
- fast roll rate of CRJ-200, and possibility to overcorrect in gusts.
- how much bank is needed with 0' crab, and max crosswind. ( what is your margin for error ? )
- Amount of crab ' that is acceptable on main gear to protect the wingtips.
No ground school on this topic. At least several wing tip strikes should have been reviewed and studied.
2014: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Atlanta on Jul 16th 2014, wing tip strike on landing
2015: Air Wisconsin: Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing
2017: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Roanoke on Jan 22nd 2017, wing tip strike on landing
In my sim, only did 12 knots crosswind. No gusts. ( not sure if sim can do that.)
No mention of :
- fast roll rate of CRJ-200, and possibility to overcorrect in gusts.
- how much bank is needed with 0' crab, and max crosswind. ( what is your margin for error ? )
- Amount of crab ' that is acceptable on main gear to protect the wingtips.
No ground school on this topic. At least several wing tip strikes should have been reviewed and studied.
The 200 is very nimble and responsive, it only has a fast roll rate if you ask for it.
If you do it right, you don't need that much bank even at max xwind. The plane weighs over 20 tons, it has inertia... it does not instantly drift down wind at the full speed of the xwind component. If you plant a main as you decrab and roll in a little bank, that will solve most of your drift problem. If you float in ground effect, then yeah you're going to need more bank.
02-26-2018, 04:59 AM
#42
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Needs to be an emphasis item in sim, IOE
Rickair,
Good points. It can do fine in crosswinds, if pilots are taught properly. Only one check airman told me " if you flare too much, crosswinds will eat you up in this airplane." He said to get it on the ground. Other LCA's insisted on wing low, with a soft landing.
I read that the roll rate is very fast for a PAX aircraft, but I can't find the roll rate written anywhere.
Good points. It can do fine in crosswinds, if pilots are taught properly. Only one check airman told me " if you flare too much, crosswinds will eat you up in this airplane." He said to get it on the ground. Other LCA's insisted on wing low, with a soft landing.
I read that the roll rate is very fast for a PAX aircraft, but I can't find the roll rate written anywhere.
Originally Posted by rickair7777
You can always find a few examples, that doesn't mean it's a problem. The 700 is far more notorious than the 200.
The 200 is very nimble and responsive, it only has a fast roll rate if you ask for it.
If you do it right, you don't need that much bank even at max xwind. The plane weighs over 20 tons, it has inertia... it does not instantly drift down wind at the full speed of the xwind component. If you plant a main as you decrab and roll in a little bank, that will solve most of your drift problem. If you float in ground effect, then yeah you're going to need more bank.
The 200 is very nimble and responsive, it only has a fast roll rate if you ask for it.
If you do it right, you don't need that much bank even at max xwind. The plane weighs over 20 tons, it has inertia... it does not instantly drift down wind at the full speed of the xwind component. If you plant a main as you decrab and roll in a little bank, that will solve most of your drift problem. If you float in ground effect, then yeah you're going to need more bank.
02-26-2018, 05:44 PM
#43
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Posts: 1,541
Originally Posted by 1wife2airlines
Even on aircraft designed to land in a crab, such as the T-38, most guys naturally gravitated to a decrab in the flare.
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
I had an IP in -38s, LtCol Bucholz, he could throw the stick all around the cockpit so fast the plane barely moved—in formation,...GF
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
... line captains need to constructively criticize bad techniques and explain good techniques and let F/Os learn. Those that can’t or won’t are doing aviation a disservice.
Last edited by HuggyU2; 02-26-2018 at 05:58 PM.
02-26-2018, 07:46 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by WesternSkies
technique is technique but I don’t know anyone who lands in the crab except by accident.
There's a lot of mass to be kicking out, and while it can be done, the FCOM/AFM calls for landing crabbed. I've done it both ways, and combinations, in some very strong crosswinds and very gusty conditions.
Get some time in conventional gear airplanes where landing with any crab at all will eat your lunch for three days straight. You'll hear this advice all the time, and it isn't wrong, but what works in one aircraft isn't necessarily appropriate in others. Same for swept wing aircraft; the technique in one is not necessarily the technique in all.
03-04-2018, 04:08 AM
#45
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CRJ-900 Wing Strike
This one is in very gusty conditions.
Looks like the speed bled off, and the plane landed hard, and caught a wing tip.
I had one veteran CRJ pilot tell me that in some cases the auto throttle can't keep up in this type of condition ?
CAUGHT ON VIDEO: Jet makes rough landing at RDU during high winds
Looks like the speed bled off, and the plane landed hard, and caught a wing tip.
I had one veteran CRJ pilot tell me that in some cases the auto throttle can't keep up in this type of condition ?
CAUGHT ON VIDEO: Jet makes rough landing at RDU during high winds
03-04-2018, 04:14 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by Paladin145
This one is in very gusty conditions.
Looks like the speed bled off, and the plane landed hard, and caught a wing tip.
I had one veteran CRJ pilot tell me that in some cases the auto throttle can't keep up in this type of condition ?
CAUGHT ON VIDEO: Jet makes rough landing at RDU during high winds
Looks like the speed bled off, and the plane landed hard, and caught a wing tip.
I had one veteran CRJ pilot tell me that in some cases the auto throttle can't keep up in this type of condition ?
CAUGHT ON VIDEO: Jet makes rough landing at RDU during high winds
Incident: Mesa CRJ9 at McAllen on Sep 29th 2015, wing tip strike on landing
03-04-2018, 07:18 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by Paladin145
On this CRJ9, there was no wind. appears to be really high pitch, high bank.
Incident: Mesa CRJ9 at McAllen on Sep 29th 2015, wing tip strike on landing
Incident: Mesa CRJ9 at McAllen on Sep 29th 2015, wing tip strike on landing
03-04-2018, 07:22 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by Paladin145
Rickair,
Good points. It can do fine in crosswinds, if pilots are taught properly. Only one check airman told me " if you flare too much, crosswinds will eat you up in this airplane." He said to get it on the ground. Other LCA's insisted on wing low, with a soft landing.
I read that the roll rate is very fast for a PAX aircraft, but I can't find the roll rate written anywhere.
Good points. It can do fine in crosswinds, if pilots are taught properly. Only one check airman told me " if you flare too much, crosswinds will eat you up in this airplane." He said to get it on the ground. Other LCA's insisted on wing low, with a soft landing.
I read that the roll rate is very fast for a PAX aircraft, but I can't find the roll rate written anywhere.
03-04-2018, 11:08 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
The 200 has a VERY low approach pitch sight picture, plus you flare later than in larger jets. You'll find you have to brief jumpseaters on that, or you'll scare the heck out of them. I was taught well from day one, would flare even later than most 200 pilots, and could consistently nail spot landings. They would be smooth too. Could never achieve quit the same consistency with larger jets, moment arms to large to be as predictable.
Can I ask who trained you? My training was different depending on the LCA.
Some got worried if you flared too low, and said you are going to hit nose wheel.
Other's were fine with it. You have to flare quick if you flare at 10' . Quick, with just the correct amount of pitch. When jumpseating, I noticed 200 pilots go from -2.5 ' to about - 1' at around 20 feet. Then at 10 feet, from -1' to +1' pitch. I saw this on more than one observation flight. Of course, they were looking down the runway, and not consciously selecting a pitch.
03-04-2018, 05:56 PM
#50
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Nothing freaks me out more than the super low flare. There is no reason for it unless you’re trying to frighten the guys sitting around you. I’ve seen it on all sizes of aircraft from the 200 to the 74 and no one likes it at any level.
Having said that, no technique is the perfect way. My technique depends on the amount of crosswind component. Just do what works for you.
Having said that, no technique is the perfect way. My technique depends on the amount of crosswind component. Just do what works for you.
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