Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-15-2018, 04:43 AM   #1  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Paladin145's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 78
Default Crosswind Landings in a Swept Wing jet

As a new jet pilot, I am just starting to scratch the surface on this topic.
I would love to hear from some experienced Jet pilots on how to consistently make crosswind landings, with minimal risk of a wing tip strike ( specifcially the CRJ-200.)

I've found some great articles that talk about techniques for various aircraft. On the CRJ-200, There seems to be debate about:

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".
- how much wing low to use?
- how close to the runway to use wing low.
- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. )

Crosswind Landings
Paladin145 is offline  
Old 02-15-2018, 05:41 AM   #2  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Paladin145's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 78
Default Video of Crosswind landing tecchnique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin145 View Post
As a new jet pilot, I am just starting to scratch the surface on this topic.
I would love to hear from some experienced Jet pilots on how to consistently make crosswind landings, with minimal risk of a wing tip strike ( specifcially the CRJ-200.)

I've found some great articles that talk about techniques for various aircraft. On the CRJ-200, There seems to be debate about:

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".
- how much wing low to use?
- how close to the runway to use wing low.
- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. )

Crosswind Landings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MwsDskzefo
Paladin145 is offline  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:07 AM   #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Learflyer's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,330
Default

I fly a Citation X with about a 44 degree (or whatever) wing sweep. How much aileron do I use on crosswinds? Hardly any. The crab and kick method is the most logical one for this bird. For the most part, I will come over the fence at about 130 knots and will allow a flatter approach for visibility. At near moment of ground contact I will kick the rudder and reduce aileron keeping it in slightly of course to the wind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Learflyer is offline  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:30 AM   #4  
Gets Weekends Off
 
galaxy flyer's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 4,112
Default

Starting on final, be stabilized without adding knots for everybody you know. The importance of speed control comes soon.

Get a feel for the amount of crab angle is required and hence how much you need to decrab. Move your “aimpoint” upwind of the centerline, probably 25’; you want your butt on the upwind side. Remember your mains trail you downwind, so if your butt is on the centerline the mains and, more importantly, the pivot point is downwind and OFF the centerline. The last place you want to start the flare/decrab is on the downwind half of the runway.

As you go thru 20’ (visually, not staring at the RadAlt), maintain centerline, start the flare and “squeeze”out the crab angle. “Kick” implies a rapid, strong input; you are aligning the flight path to the runway. Here’s where speed control is important! If you decrab early, take too big a kick, or play around flaring and getting rid excess speed, drift will rapidly build. Putting the crab BACK in is functionally impossible this close to the surface--go around. It’s probably better to land with some crab on than to touch drifting downwind toward the edges.

Watch the PFD, while the captain is landing. 5* is a lot of bank, strive for wings level at the touchdown and you’ll probably not scrap a wingtip. Usually, you will have some wing down.

Couple of cautions: if you touchdown hard, with bank, the plane we’ll rotate laterally as the grounded gear is the fulcrum and the high side comes to Earth. This can lead to the upwind wing scrapping. As the pilot moves in his seat, it is possible to add some aileron on the wrong side. I’ve seen this in investigations of a CL 300 scrap; crew got the upwind flap canoe. An AF Global reportedly got both wingtips this way.

Excess speed equals float which exactly what you don’t need. That means close watch on final to IAS and keep it under control.

Do NOT get slow or let the pitch (body) angke get too high. High pitch angles out the tips closer to the runway meaning less ckearance. Fly it on at Vref to no less than Vref-5.

Don’t stop flying the plane until taxi speed, the crosswind will try to raise the upwind wing, you’ll need a fair amount of upwind aileron as you slow.

This all comes from 3,500 hours in the Global and Challenger and 5,000 touch and goes instructing in the C-5. Nary a scrap.

I’ve used this video in briefings:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Mv15t2Pg

GF
galaxy flyer is offline  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:42 AM   #5  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Paladin145's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 78
Default Great input !

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
Starting on final, be stabilized without adding knots for everybody you know. The importance of speed control comes soon.

Get a feel for the amount of crab angle is required and hence how much you need to decrab. Move your “aimpoint” upwind of the centerline, probably 25’; you want your butt on the upwind side. Remember your mains trail you downwind, so if your butt is on the centerline the mains and, more importantly, the pivot point is downwind and OFF the centerline. The last place you want to start the flare/decrab is on the downwind half of the runway.

As you go thru 20’ (visually, not staring at the RadAlt), maintain centerline, start the flare and “squeeze”out the crab angle. “Kick” implies a rapid, strong input; you are aligning the flight path to the runway. Here’s where speed control is important! If you decrab early, take too big a kick, or play around flaring and getting rid excess speed, drift will rapidly build. Putting the crab BACK in is functionally impossible this close to the surface--go around. It’s probably better to land with some crab on than to touch drifting downwind toward the edges.

Watch the PFD, while the captain is landing. 5* is a lot of bank, strive for wings level at the touchdown and you’ll probably not scrap a wingtip. Usually, you will have some wing down.

Couple of cautions: if you touchdown hard, with bank, the plane we’ll rotate laterally as the grounded gear is the fulcrum and the high side comes to Earth. This can lead to the upwind wing scrapping. As the pilot moves in his seat, it is possible to add some aileron on the wrong side. I’ve seen this in investigations of a CL 300 scrap; crew got the upwind flap canoe. An AF Global reportedly got both wingtips this way.

Excess speed equals float which exactly what you don’t need. That means close watch on final to IAS and keep it under control.

Do NOT get slow or let the pitch (body) angke get too high. High pitch angles out the tips closer to the runway meaning less ckearance. Fly it on at Vref to no less than Vref-5.

Don’t stop flying the plane until taxi speed, the crosswind will try to raise the upwind wing, you’ll need a fair amount of upwind aileron as you slow.

This all comes from 3,500 hours in the Global and Challenger and 5,000 touch and goes instructing in the C-5. Nary a scrap.

I’ve used this video in briefings:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Mv15t2Pg

GF
Thank you, gentlemen ! Great info ! I will share with the other nuggets.
Paladin145 is offline  
Old 02-15-2018, 08:59 AM   #6  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 25,715
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin145 View Post
As a new jet pilot, I am just starting to scratch the surface on this topic.
I would love to hear from some experienced Jet pilots on how to consistently make crosswind landings, with minimal risk of a wing tip strike ( specifcially the CRJ-200.)

I've found some great articles that talk about techniques for various aircraft. On the CRJ-200, There seems to be debate about:

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".
- how much wing low to use?
- how close to the runway to use wing low.
- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. )

Crosswind Landings
For the CRJ200..

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".

I would do it really close, like "10". That would prevent side drift. If you're new to the plane, might do it a little higher until you get a feel. With practice on a 200, you can kick it out right into a LDG.

- how much wing low to use?

As much as needed, respecting max demonstrated XW. If I needed a relatively high bank angle for a gust I would take some of that out at the last moment just to be safe... a little drift is better than too much bank, they replace the tires regularly anyway. The CRJ700 is prone to hitting wingtips, I don't recall that being much of an issue on the 200.


- how close to the runway to use wing low.

Somewhere between "20" and touchdown. You can use it a little all the way to touchdown, but go easy when you're new.


- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. ).

You want to nose on the CL when you kick it out. So you have kind of eyeball that with a big crab, YOU will be noticeably off CL (upwind) when crabbing, that way the center of the plane will be on CL the whole time. When you kick it out, the plane will rotate around it's center, moving the nose (and you) onto CL. If you're a little off, no big deal, but on CL is the way Pros do it. On CL gives you margin to either side in case of asymmetric braking, reversers, wind drift, ice, etc.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 02-15-2018, 09:04 AM   #7  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Paladin145's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 78
Default Thank you .

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
For the CRJ200..

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".

I would do it really close, like "10". That would prevent side drift. If you're new to the plane, might do it a little higher until you get a feel. With practice on a 200, you can kick it out right into a LDG.

- how much wing low to use?

As much as needed, respecting max demonstrated XW. If I needed a relatively high bank angle for a gust I would take some of that out at the last moment just to be safe... a little drift is better than too much bank, they replace the tires regularly anyway. The CRJ700 is prone to hitting wingtips, I don't recall that being much of an issue on the 200.


- how close to the runway to use wing low.

Somewhere between "20" and touchdown. You can use it a little all the way to touchdown, but go easy when you're new.


- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. ).

You want to nose on the CL when you kick it out. So you have kind of eyeball that with a big crab, YOU will be noticeably off CL (upwind) when crabbing, that way the center of the plane will be on CL the whole time. When you kick it out, the plane will rotate around it's center, moving the nose (and you) onto CL. If you're a little off, no big deal, but on CL is the way Pros do it. On CL gives you margin to either side in case of asymmetric braking, reversers, wind drift, ice, etc.
Thank you, Rick Air. Great info. This clears up a lot. I was getting different input from different LCA's.
Paladin145 is offline  
Old 02-15-2018, 01:11 PM   #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
WesternSkies's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: Downward Dog
Posts: 1,869
Default

A firm, quick touchdown while sideslipping the airplane as late as possible is best IMO.

Don’t fear dragging the upwind wing on a normal stiff crosswind. A little slip goes a long way in the duece.

Look at the image of Mesa dragging a wing tip, the picture outside from that cockpit would have been pretty extreme.
The worst I’ve seen are guys who don’t slip (forgot?).

Unnecessarily dropping a wing on the 700 just before touchdown can actually really help your landings until you get the 700 technique down.
WesternSkies is offline  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:52 PM   #9  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Paladin145's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 78
Default Agree with firm quick touchdown.

I had one LCA say if you try to flare, and land soft a " crosswind will eat you up in this airplane." That same trip I landed 12 knots steady x wind, and just set it down, with xwind correction as low as possible. Works great. On centerline, no drift. What worries me is the 27 kts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternSkies View Post
A firm, quick touchdown while sideslipping the airplane as late as possible is best IMO.

Don’t fear dragging the upwind wing on a normal stiff crosswind. A little slip goes a long way in the duece.

Look at the image of Mesa dragging a wing tip, the picture outside from that cockpit would have been pretty extreme.
The worst I’ve seen are guys who don’t slip (forgot?).

Unnecessarily dropping a wing on the 700 just before touchdown can actually really help your landings until you get the 700 technique down.
Paladin145 is offline  
Old 02-15-2018, 07:01 PM   #10  
Line Holder
 
1wife2airlines's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 67
Default

Just to be clear, there is no rudder to kick out in the flare, there is a crab angle, in coordinated flight, which must be reduced to runway alignment using rudder for longitudinal correction while using aileron to keep the upwind wing from rising due to the yaw. This crosscontrol in the flare is also be called a slip.
Any aileron input error should be to the excess which would put the upwind gear down earlier than the downwind. Some guys do that on purpose.
I've seen more sideslip to landing sideloads on big jets caused by the guy who wants to fly it like a cub than sideloads by guys who did not decrab enough.
If your airplane does autoland read how it corrects for X-wind.
Even on aircraft designed to land in a crab, such as the T-38, most guys naturally gravitated to a decrab in the flare.
1wife2airlines is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
UAL hits Skywest jet at SFO HSLD Regional 26 01-22-2008 06:48 AM
Passengers revolt after being told to fly on jet with its wing tip missing wannabepilot Major 20 11-07-2007 01:52 PM
Silent jet joel payne Hangar Talk 0 11-06-2006 06:18 PM
Silent Jet vagabond Hangar Talk 10 11-05-2006 09:45 PM
Spectrum Jet crash / reversed controls cub pilot Corporate 0 08-04-2006 12:16 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:40 PM.